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How Thane ability works

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  • How Thane ability works

    This thread is a follow-up to this other thread: Thane is the worst (Spoiler: It's most likely not true )
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edit: The information presented in this thread has not been verified. It's mostly conjecture which seems like it could be right to me.


    So after all I think what the player told me on Discord was right. Here it is again:

    "Thane does not nullify all pierce and resistance he only nulls the amounts that are higher than the person you are going against. It’s basically battling straight up or if you are using him and your pierce or res is already higher than your opponents he does nothing"


    He pointed out to me that on the official thread I linked, there's an important word I missed at the end: "bonuses"

    "When equipped, [Thane] will provide a chance to nullify opponent Pierce/Resist bonuses."
    Even though this word is omitted in the Hero in-game description.

    Here's the source again: http://www.castleageforums.com/cforu...Arena-X-Update


    So what does it means?

    It means that Thane doesn't nullify the Pierce or Resistance themselves.
    It nullifies the bonuses they bring (to your opponent. You keep yours).
    So if your opponent's Pierce or Resistance doesn't bring them any bonus to begin with, Thane doesn't nullify anything.

    I'm now pretty sure it works that way. And it works, according to the person who told me that. It's just that his ability is not as overpowered as one may think it is when reading his ability in-game.

    What this means effectively is that when attacking with Thane, if you have more Pierce than your opponent has Resistance (in all 5 types), Thane will have no effect at all.
    And when defending with Thane, if the attacker has less Pierce than you have Resistance (in all 5 types), again Thane has no effect at all.

    So what is his use in practice?
    Well he can still be very powerful IMO. When Thane ability triggers, you get to keep the bonuses your Pierce or Resistance brings you, while your opponent loses the bonuses his Pierce or Resistance would have brought him.
    BUT since your opponent's Pierce or Resistance themselves are NOT nullified, when the ability triggers you don't get a bonus yourself in the Pierce or Resistance type whose bonus was nullified. It's just that no one gets a bonus in this Pierce/Resist type, while your opponent should have had one because he had more Pierce or Resistance than you in this type. And that can still create a pretty big change in PvP strength.


    If you want to test whether Thane does in fact work (and works that way), the same player pointed out to me that it was easy to do so:
    "it’s very easy to test find someone that has better stats than you but they can’t beat you or find someone that you have better stats than but can’t beat."



    Phew... I think I did finally understand how Thane works lol


    All in all, I think he's a pretty damn fine general, without being game-breaking. Pretty good design. Very bad ability description.

    I do think it's right that he's considered a "Legendary" General.
    Last edited by gogoo; 04-27-2019, 02:44 PM.

  • #2
    Thane ability example + why he can be powerful

    I'm just going to copy-paste something I wrote on Discord about why Thane can still be very powerful IMO:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    I suppose then Thane's ability can still be good.


    Imagine you (attacker) have 500 Earth Pierce above your opponent's Earth Resist, while he has 600 Fire Resist above your Fire Pierce. When Thane's ability triggers, he won't get any bonus from his resistance, but you'll get a big bonus from your Earth pierce.

    It's just a simple example - it probably has more chances to be smaller amounts over the 5 different pierce/resist types.


    If you want to use Thane, I suppose it's best to focus on gems which all give the same elemental boost (be it offensively or defensively), so when his ability triggers all the bonuses from the 3 other elements will be negated for your opponent while you can still get a big bonus from your one element.

    Unless you're bad lucky enough to have an opponent who also chose to use gems giving only 1 element and it's the same as yours (which should happen very rarely I assume).

    Looks to me like Thane can still be very powerful in the right hands (someone with lots of good chaos gems to choose from also).


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    If used right, I think he can be very powerful especially defensively to deter attackers.

    Because if used right, when his ability triggers he should increase your chances of winning by a LOT.

    And at level 80 even when unpromoted his ability already has a 48% chance of triggering.

    Equip him during an Arena for instance; if most attackers that should have won 100% of the time when attacking you suddenly are winning only about half the duels, they'll definitely go to another target.
    Last edited by gogoo; 04-24-2019, 12:01 PM.

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    • #3
      Would be cool if someone could definitely test him though. Text analysis is great, but it doesn't mean it's right.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by zserg View Post
        Would be cool if someone could definitely test him though. Text analysis is great, but it doesn't mean it's right.
        Yes, that's true.

        However:
        1) Thane definitely works (meaning, he does something, his ability isn't broken)
        2) He doesn't nullify all pierce and resist of the opponent (that would be super OP; and that's not what people have been experiencing with him)

        So what I've been told recently and that I detailed in this thread sounds like the most likely scenario to me. But yes, it's not 100% sure (for now) that he works like that.


        Also I've been discussing a bit more about Thane on Discord.
        And the way Elemental Pierce/Resist works (since July 2016) is that, for attack for instance, all the net amounts (what you get after reducing your Pierce amounts by your opponent's Resistance amounts) of all 4 elemental types are added together before using that sum to calculate the bonuses you get.
        (Physical is still separated).

        Even though there's still 5 lines in the log, for instance:
        You Physically Pierced your opponent!
        Your opponent resisted your Fire Pierce!
        Your Water Pierce has submerged your opponent!
        Your Earth Pierce has crushed your opponents!
        Your Wind Pierce blew your opponents away!

        It's not those 5 lines separately that actually decide the effective bonus (or penalty) you get. They still tell you who between you and your opponent has more Pierce/Resist for each type though.


        So depending when Thane intervenes in the calculations, what I said earlier about focusing on 1 single elemental type may not change anything after all.
        If he intervenes before all elemental bonuses are added together, that's useful.
        If he intervenes after they're put together, it wouldn't be useful.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by zserg View Post
          Would be cool if someone could definitely test him though. Text analysis is great, but it doesn't mean it's right.
          I've done so much testing, with so much help and manipulation, and never, not once, been able to beat someone with Thane's ability (the text showing) activating that I couldn't beat otherwise.

          I found nothing but white swans. Thousands of stamina hit opponents in so many different ways, but never ever saw a single victory from Thane, period--never.
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          Originally posted by VersionsOfViolence
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          #2 nobody cares about da wilbsta

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          • #6
            Deleted because other thread.
            Last edited by Da Wimsta; 04-25-2019, 11:46 AM.
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            Originally posted by VersionsOfViolence
            #1 it's not nice to be mean to ppl
            #2 nobody cares about da wilbsta

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Da Wimsta View Post
              I've done so much testing, with so much help and manipulation, and never, not once, been able to beat someone with Thane's ability (the text showing) activating that I couldn't beat otherwise.

              I found nothing but white swans. Thousands of stamina hit opponents in so many different ways, but never ever saw a single victory from Thane, period--never.
              Da Wimsta has the following assertion: He cannot win with Thane’s ability (e.g. Thane being in alliance does not help Da Wimsta win).

              The standard we use to test a theory or assertion is Falsifiability: the ability to falsify, negate, refute, disaffirm, etc a theory with one single piece of evidence.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

              No amount of positive evidence will prove Da Wimsta’s assertion true; however, one SINGLE piece of disaffirming evidence will destroy said assertion.

              In the last arena, I was beating some other player, then I bounced as the Thane message showed up. So I know for a fact Thane’s ability does in fact help a defensive loadout.
              Last edited by Batw; 04-25-2019, 12:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Deleted because other thread.
                Last edited by Da Wimsta; 04-25-2019, 11:46 AM.
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                Originally posted by VersionsOfViolence
                #1 it's not nice to be mean to ppl
                #2 nobody cares about da wilbsta

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Da Wimsta View Post
                  What sense do you make of the picture posted?

                  Bounced Vlad without my defensive Thane activating.

                  Was defeated by Vlad with my Thane activating.

                  I don't even want to argue with you, if you've got an explanation on how Thane worked, and achieves such an outcome, I will thank your for figuring out what we couldn't.
                  Perhaps my post went over your head.

                  It does NOT matter how many photos, how many evidence, etc that you collect. None of that will prove your assertion true per the theory of falsifiability.

                  It is the ABSENCE of disaffirming, negating, invalidating, etc evidence to prove Da Wimsta’s assertion true.

                  Take the field of mathematics, a Proof occurs when it is shown that disaffirming, negating, invalidating evidence ARE NOT POSSIBLE and that is why it is a Proof.

                  As I posted earlier, I’ve seen Thane’s buff work and cause me to suddenly bounce when I was winning in Arena when hitting the same person consecutively. I suspect Thane’s buff works as what gogoo wrote in the OP.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We are not and should not be trying to find mathematical proof here. As pointed out, we don't have the right setup to even collect the data necessary.

                    Perhaps if we treat this as we are looking for a WAG of what Thane is doing, we could make progress. We could even graduate into a SWAG of what Thane is doing.

                    Who knows, if we get enough data, someone might even crunch some numbers and give us a possible percentage of what Thane might do. (Don't hold your breath for that last one. We no longer have the high council or the math crushers that once graced this forum.)

                    PG-13 link of WAG, SWAG, and all those things you might not know, but should.
                    ...Dwarven Miner - I found a free chest roll for ye, but I was ambushed by a Dev in the mine.
                    Lil rascal made away with it...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rev Sim View Post
                      We are not and should not be trying to find mathematical proof here. As pointed out, we don't have the right setup to even collect the data necessary.

                      Perhaps if we treat this as we are looking for a WAG of what Thane is doing, we could make progress. We could even graduate into a SWAG of what Thane is doing.

                      Who knows, if we get enough data, someone might even crunch some numbers and give us a possible percentage of what Thane might do. (Don't hold your breath for that last one. We no longer have the high council or the math crushers that once graced this forum.)

                      PG-13 link of WAG, SWAG, and all those things you might not know, but should.
                      There are a great many unknowns, but there was a time when we had things pretty well worked out. Sadly I really don't remember enough anymore, but I was able to look at the old chats, (having this free time, I don't know what to do?) and we did lots of testing, both offensive and defensive. While we couldn't figure out what was happening, we absolutely saw that it wasn't "as described." We also saw that it was a small impact effect.

                      I mean I literally made a Thane loadout with no pierce or resistance to try and make a baseline, but couldn't come up with any explanation whatsoever.
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                      Originally posted by VersionsOfViolence
                      #1 it's not nice to be mean to ppl
                      #2 nobody cares about da wilbsta

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Da Wimsta View Post
                        It does indeed make it look like Thane's ability isn't working.

                        Originally posted by Da Wimsta View Post
                        Moderators should probably merge threads, or lock this one, the OP wants to be correct and asserts "truths" not presented in the evidence.
                        No need to act like an almighty [].

                        I couldn't care less about being right, I just want to find out how stuff works. If I get evidence on how Thane works, I'll be happy - whether it agrees with or completely disproves everything I wrote in this thread.
                        Maybe you're assuming everyone works/thinks like you when it comes to this matter, but I assure you it's not true.

                        You can notice it in the way I write, for instance: "I'm now pretty sure it works that way", or the use of "I think" (2nd line of the post).
                        => What this implies is that 1) I realize it's my own opinion on the matter and 2) I'm not even sure of it.

                        Though I still put an edit in the first post to make it more clear for everyone.

                        Also you took your time with the "presented evidence" you're talking about, as you decided to show it only after I made this thread. While I was asking questions and trying to gather info about him a few days ago already.


                        You also said yourself that the thread you made yourself on Thane was to "have some fun".
                        "I was trying to have some fun, "prove me wrong" should have been the indicator for that."
                        I was indeed seeing it that way, which is why I decided to create a separate thread for serious discussion. I don't understand why you'd ask a moderator to merge threads or lock this one, except maybe out of pure pettiness.
                        People trying to find relevant info, if ever they'd stumble on your thread and click on it despite its title, may see the first posts, see it's not a serious thread, and leave.
                        Last edited by zserg; 04-25-2019, 07:42 AM. Reason: :cough:

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                        • #13
                          We're not going to merge the threads. One is about how Thane works, the other one is almost off topic material.

                          A point was already made and acknowledged that the first post contains suppositions/conjecture on how Thane appears to work. (which was clear in any case, even initially).

                          If we get hard data, with stats and gear details, to figure this out it would be great("I equipped Thane and lost" doesn't really count in my book, Thane obviously does something and we need more data to figure out the circumstances under which he is useful), and there's more of a chance of this happening here, then in the other 'joke' thread.


                          Edit: And lets focus on staying on topic from now on...
                          Last edited by zserg; 04-25-2019, 07:51 AM.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Da Wimsta
                            I have provided clear evidence that I bounced an opponent without Thane's ability activating, then lost when my defensive ability did activate. (I'll add, this happened multiple times)

                            This scenario could not happen if what Gogoo posted was true
                            We would need to know both players' full stats and resistance/pierce amounts each time.

                            Even with the screenshot you're referring to, what I said in my first post may very well still be true.


                            To sum up the screenshot:

                            Rexy attacks you.
                            You're the one with Thane in your def loadout.
                            One time he attacks you and he lost even though your Thane's ability didn't trigger.
                            Another time he attacks you, and this time he wins even though your Thane's ability triggered which probably should have given you an edge - meaning that you probably should have won again (by a larger margin).


                            However.

                            The fact that these 2 battles with a different outcome happened proves that with their respective loadouts, the attacker's offensive strength and the defender's defensive strength were pretty close. In a battle with or without Thane, Rexy could win or lose depending on the random factor in CA battles.
                            As I stated in my first post, when you're attacking, if your pierce doesn't bring you any bonus to start with, then the defender having Thane won't change anything at all.
                            It's completely possible that the amount of pierce he had over your resistance was very small. Be it in each pierce/resist type or simply in all elemental types combined, depending on how Thane works - I elaborated on this in my 3rd post. And I think your screenshots actually make it slightly more likely that Thane intervenes after elemental types net values are combined together - having the exact values would have helped greatly in determining how Thane works.

                            If Thane does intervene after elemental types values are combined, we could imagine this scenario:
                            Physical:
                            Rexy has 800 PP, you have 1000 PR
                            => Thane does nothing.
                            Elemental:
                            Rexy has 250 FP, you have 200 FR --> +50 El. Pierce
                            Rexy has 250 WP, you have 200 WR --> +50 El. Pierce
                            Rexy has 250 EP, you have 200 ER --> +50 El. Pierce
                            Rexy has 0 WP, you have 300 WR --> +300 El. Resist
                            => total of +150 Elemental Resist in your favor
                            => Thane does nothing

                            If Thane intervenes before elemental types values are combined, we could imagine this scenario:
                            Physical:
                            Rexy has 800 PP, you have 1000 PR
                            => Thane does nothing.
                            Elemental:
                            Rexy has 201 FP, you have 200 FR --> +1 FP => Thane negates the bonus from 1 FP
                            Rexy has 201 WP, you have 200 WR --> +1 WP => Thane negates the bonus from 1 WP
                            Rexy has 201 EP, you have 200 ER --> +1 EP => Thane negates the bonus from 1 EP
                            Rexy has 0 WP, you have 300 WR --> +300 EResist => Thane does nothing
                            => Thane negates the bonus from a total of 3 Elemental Pierce. Which you'll agree, may not change the outcome of the battle. The values could still be quite a lot higher probably (not by too big amounts though ofc) and what happened in your screenshot could still happen, because the Pierce bonus negated by Thane would be too small compared to the random factor in CA battles.


                            I want to point out that in each thread where we have a discussion, I feel like you assert what you think is true as the full truth and ask people to prove you wrong without actually doing any calculation or fully understanding the matter yourself (did you even read my posts?).
                            I feel like I have to do a huge job just to make a single point go through when discussing with you, while to challenge my theories you're just throwing your own truths around.
                            So from now on I'll try to refrain from challenging your statements if they're not backed up by anything relevant. Not that you'd care; I'm just stating that I don't feel like I have to prove you wrong to make the discussion go forward, as I've seen you asserting wrong statements with a lot of confidence several times now.


                            Originally posted by Da Wimsta
                            This scenario could not happen if what Gogoo posted was true, but it happened, therefor what Gogoo posted is not true.

                            Simple syllogism, if A then B, no B, therefor no A. Right?
                            Yes, very simple, however with one of the propositions being wrong, the simplest syllogism would still be wrong.


                            I mean, I totally understand why someone may not be interested in reading my long posts. But then I'd like it if that person didn't reply in the thread as if they had read and understood it.
                            Don't get me wrong, the screenshots are greatly appreciated. The assertions and accusations made alongside them, less.


                            And before you jump to conclusions again:
                            What I'm saying here is not that Thane's ability works exactly as I described in my first posts. It's just that your screenshots by themselves don't prove it doesn't.



                            Originally posted by zserg View Post
                            Edit: And lets focus on staying on topic from now on...
                            Sorry, the word I used was too familiar and unnecessary anyway.
                            Last edited by gogoo; 04-25-2019, 09:09 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Deleted because other thread.
                              Last edited by Da Wimsta; 04-25-2019, 11:47 AM.
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                              Originally posted by VersionsOfViolence
                              #1 it's not nice to be mean to ppl
                              #2 nobody cares about da wilbsta

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