Thoughts on Promotions

[thexbob]

First Some spreadsheet scribbles. Newershadow and I had a little back and forth... I deserve any blame for inaccuracies

Ability level bonus:
2 star: + 3 levels
3 star: + 7 levels
4 star: + 12 levels
5 star: + 18 levels
6 star: + 25 levels (based on preview).

General stat increase.

I am just going to write this down separately for with and without 3 pieces of general equipment owned. The rounding is *usually* down, like 341.8 still rounds down to 341. Floor function.
No equipment owned
2 star: baseStat*1.3+7
3 star: baseStat*1.6+17
4 star: baseStat*2.0+25
5 star: baseStat*2.4+44
6 star: baseStat*2.6+61 (this is only based on previews and some backwards projecting.)

3 pieces of equipment owned for 10% bonus (floor on both parens)
2 star: ((baseStat*1.3+7)*1.1 +eqptbonus) [such as +5 atk or +5 def to Sahar]
3 star: ((baseStat*1.6+17)*1.1 +eqptbonus)
4 star: ((baseStat*2.0+25)*1.1 +eqptbonus)
5 star: ((baseStat*2.4+49*1.1 +eqptbonus)
6 star: ((baseStat*2.6+61)*1.1 +eqptbonus) (this is only based on previews and some backwards projecting.)

This is again conjectures on small sample sizes. Getting the numbers in the formula right is WAY easier with the wikia data.

Finally, comparing star levels for favor generals:
General bases stat of 100 to 1000 (higher percents are for smaller generals):
2 star: about a 30% bonus over one star [30FP]
3 star: 24 - 29% bonus over 2 star [60FP]
4 star: 25-27% bonus over 3 star [90FP]
5 star: 20-26% bonus over 4 star [150FP]
So it really is the first 1 or two promotions that help the most. Notice that the equipment bonus, which is an additional 10% multiplier for 75 fps, is pretty similar in marginal cost to a 5 star promoted general for 150 fp; the equipment adds a little in the line of stats, but promotion adds some ability levels. So... 5 star promotion is probably the better value.

[thexbob]

What to do for various individuals and for strategies is going to vary greatly.

On the high LSI side:

-I caved to curiosity and also had been resigned to spending on promotions since they were announced. So I splurged for a 5 star promoted Sahar - 360 FPs, the oink promotion helped, and I got a few extra so I can actually try to finish off the Cronus blade I'm working on. I only have one lvl 79 general... that's a lot of resources, and I'll be looking to take her to level 80 if I can just get enough red crystals.

I'm not sure when/if I will promote another general (edit: I did take Sorkan to lvl 2); I feel it makes most sense to max my main general before looking at spending FPs on another task or general. I maybe should have Promoted Sorkan and worked hard to get him to lvl 80 because of the +2% critical bonus. However, I have accepted at this point that my alliances are not going to be optimal as the rules of the game change: I will settle for very good. I leave open the possibility of starting another general at another time, but one thing at a time.

If I could reallocate my resources, my hunting alliance would be Barbarus/Dolomar/Sahar (or some permutation, or maybe Sorkan/Dolomar/Barbarus). But, I don't have that option.

-My teams are going to look like this
Hunting: Sahar/Sorkan/Maalvus
Defense: Sahar/Daphne/Vivian
GB damage: Sahar/Sorkan/Deinara OR Sahar/Dawn/Deinara OR (if I'm caught as a rogue) maybe you'd see Sahar/Deshara/Deinara

I am not always going to have the right team up. Switching alliance is going to be annoying. But the sheer crystal investment needed to get other generals to the point where it would make sense making them the primary general has gotten very, very high for me.

Sometimes I'll use zin/S/M obviously. And Solara/S/M and Maalvus/S/S. And I still have a Sano/Titania/Aeris alliance for random things. But when I look below at the multipliers, well, the links aren't going to be sending a significant fraction of the stats of the main hero for the cost for me. Stamina refills are still very attractive for me, arguably more attractive now than ever before.

Starting Barbarus may well make sense for me, given the damage multiplier would work on Sahar's new strength. I could get Dolomar to level 59 for less resources than it would take to get Maalvus to the point that he would be stronger than a level 59 Dolomar. BUT this is where i'm content holding for now.

Happy hunting ahead


-oh, and if this discourages you from CA... please note that it is always important to compare to ones peer group. A below unicorn pvp player is going to have a harder time bouncing me - but I've already bounced on a below level 600 player with my archives on and such and them not seemingly having a strongest general up. There are ways of getting FPs for free, and I really, really think that promoting one general to 2 star or 3 star (or possibly 4 star for the FP accumulating type player) is completely doable for a non-spender - my fellow power leveler who hoards FPs and doesn't spend was pretty happy with a 3 star dolomar - and I wish I had one! But I don't. (Also, I have now spent more than a "promo" spender, so maybe I am a "small" spender (or "very small" spender, idk).)


So you don't have to spend. I only did so because I'm going to get my personal money's worth out of this - I enjoy hunting monsters and participating in guild battles in CA... And writing rambling posts like this for the hunter types out there. The point of this game is fun, never forget that.


-note: doing the best I could, I used a negative binomial distribution to generate a 90% confidence intervalfor the cost of getting a 8 star promoted general, assuming they actually have a 1/80 chance of dropping... However, I only assumed one needed 29 successful rolls; it now seems likely one needs 1+1+2+3+5+8+12+17=49... but hopefully no one finds out how many we actually need, As for 29 successful rolls (let's pretend that's taking a 2 star or 3 star general up to a 7 star general), I got 44370 FPs to 81760 (mean would be 29*80*8/3=61866.666...). before you accuse the devs of being insanely greedy, no one needs to purchase a max promoted general. As always, gambling is taxes for those who don't understand probabilities. Anyone with a chest general above level 2 is probably already way out of my league by default - this is a keeping up with the jones kind of thing, and most of us don't care to try to get into the list of the top 100 essence traders (and I'm pretty sure many of them don't care about it all that much either).

[Batw]

First Some spreadsheet scribbles. Newershadow and I had a little back and forth... I deserve any blame for inaccuracies

Ability level bonus:
2 star: + 3 levels
3 star: + 7 levels
4 star: + 12 levels
5 star: + 18 levels
6 star: + 25 levels (based on preview).

General stat increase.

I am just going to write this down separately for with and without 3 pieces of general equipment owned. The rounding is *usually* down, like 341.8 still rounds down to 341. Floor function.
No equipment owned
2 star: baseStat*1.3+7
3 star: baseStat*1.6+17
4 star: baseStat*2.0+25
5 star: baseStat*2.4+44
6 star: baseStat*2.6+61 (this is only based on previews and some backwards projecting.)

3 pieces of equipment owned for 10% bonus
2 star: baseStat*1.3*1.1+7+eqptbonus [such as +5 atk or +5 def to Sahar]
3 star: baseStat*1.6*1.1+17+eqptbonus
4 star: baseStat*2.0*1.1+25+eqptbonus
5 star: baseStat*2.4*1.1+44+eqptbonus
6 star: baseStat*2.6*1.1+61+eqptbonus (this is only based on previews and some backwards projecting.)

This is again conjectures on small sample sizes. Getting the numbers in the formula right is WAY easier with the wikia data.

Just a quick comment -- 30 favor points for a sure thing: a new "copy" of a favor general. We could, on a probabilistic basis (using the dreaded negative binominal distribution), solve how many expected favor points is needed to get the 5* (or 6*, 7*, or 8*) on a chest general.

It almost seems unfair that overnight, the favor generals have the ability to quickly out rank the chest generals if you control for the amount of favor points spent. Basically, the favor generals are such a great deal relative to generals from chest spins for general promotions.

[El Derbo]

I like the looks of my lvl 69 Barbarus. 19.2% dmg bonus (was 15.2% before.) Stats are 1167/704 w/o alliance or equipment bonuses.

For 360 FP I think he's stronger than what he'd be as a 1* at level 80 which I'm very far away from getting him.

[Elandal]

It seems that Barbarus will end up leading my MH alliance, as promoting Orc King is way too expensive.

Odin is Arena prize, Annika is favour general. This means Annika can be promoted, Odin not. Unlike with other cases where some general has become obsolete, here it's not due to change in overall mechanisms but rather in head to head comparison where specifically not being able to promote Odin obsoletes him. This isn't good.

I will likely promote a few favour generals to five stars when I've decided which generals are going to be tier one for me.

[VersionsOfViolence]

I'm past the point where mAtk really helps, so I'll likely work towards promoting Oberon, Daphne, and Joan, while using free rolls to try for Jera and Kang.

[Elandal]

I'm past the point where mAtk really helps, so I'll likely work towards promoting Oberon, Daphne, and Joan, while using free rolls to try for Jera and Kang.

Kang is useless. Dolomar promoted once should beat Kang of same level.

It's those chest generals that have no identical favour general counterpart that are useful, as when there's a monthly, promoted monthly will be cheaper than chests.

[zserg]

You can't use free rolls to promote dolomar. (probably won't get Kang either unless super lucky )

[Elandal]

You can't use free rolls to promote dolomar. (probably won't get Kang either unless super lucky )

True. But FP will be dropping along with free rolls from demi blessing bonuses sometime in the future. Would bet on getting 30FP for Dolomar promotion faster than two Kangs

Promoting favour generals as much as to five stars means that you should start on identical chest general only if you do intend to roll that chest for at least a few thousand times to promote chest general past what favour general can reach.

[thexbob]

Just a quick comment -- 30 favor points for a sure thing: a new "copy" of a favor general. We could, on a probabilistic basis (using the dreaded negative binominal distribution), solve how many expected favor points is needed to get the 5* (or 6*, 7*, or 8*) on a chest general.

It almost seems unfair that overnight, the favor generals have the ability to quickly out rank the chest generals if you control for the amount of favor points spent. Basically, the favor generals are such a great deal relative to generals from chest spins for general promotions.

It is unfair. I agree completely. Favor generals probably should have been maxed at level 3 and chest generals at level 6 or something similar.

Edit: but there IS a way to fix this if done very quickly: simply reduce the number of generals needed to get to promotion levels 5, 6, 7, and 8 instead of continuing to increase the requirements. Also, Malekus, promoted to level 2, is still going to be better than an equivalent general promoted to level 4 or possibly 5. So, the real problem is only certain generals are usefu.

If you do have a 3x promoted Kang, it is probably best to cut your losses, 5 promote dolomar and make Kang #2. That still is more powerful than doing 5 star dolomar on its own, and the other promoted generals were useful for a 4+ month time frame (Oct-feb, i believe).

One of the tricky things about this game is you need to do things that makes sense in the medium and long term based on what happens in the short run. My promoting Sahar and batw promoting katherine is done for short, medium, and long term. I figure I will eventually recoup the favor point cost of upgrading Sahar: I'm getting, for example, a 40% increase on the damage i do to the rats. Whether I pursue them more heavily or not, it is now less stamina intensive because general stats increase damage to monster linearly.

However, I do not know today whether it makes sense tho upgrade other generals, and the marginal benefit of upgrading them over using Sahar in slot one is small enough that I have to assume that all upgrades will be adding either 1/2 or 1/4 of the stats. That's a big drop. Oh wait, I discussed this below... my bad.

[Sisu]

The way to fix it is simple: make all generals upgradable to 5 via 30 fp per point. The chest generals can go to 8 via spinning. Keep the same amount of generals to spin the same as when rank 4 was max. This is extremely reasonable and fair to chest generals as you first must unlock it. Then 3 levels are multi spin and 4 levels are like oracle upgrade.

[Chaos]

When I looked at Feredir on the FP list, it said I had "1/12". If I buy another and promote him, will it go back to 1/12, or count the promotion as 2/12?

[Sisu]

You can buy 12 total. Promoting doesn't change that.

[thexbob]

The way to fix it is simple: make all generals upgradable to 5 via 30 fp per point. The chest generals can go to 8 via spinning. Keep the same amount of generals to spin the same as when rank 4 was max. This is extremely reasonable and fair to chest generals as you first must unlock it. Then 3 levels are multi spin and 4 levels are like oracle upgrade.

yep. again, a fix that would hopefully be done sooner rather than later, as if you have players who spin for 5 or 6 stars, then you have to raise the promotion cap further... which probably doesn't matter at this point.

I would be surprised if anyone has a 8star promoted general, as they should probably still be spinning for it... only been about 33 hours. Such are chest rolls.

A 3 star cap on the favor generals would've prevented a bunch of problems. But, honestly, one gets the impression the initial release of promotion brought in about as much as one could get, so a new more universal spending option was unveiled. I don't think there is comprehension of the shear scale of spins needed here. Someone could spend 100x as much as I spent upgrading Sahar and not get a chest general to the same star count... the key word is could: low probabilities always screw over the 10-25% of least lucky users.

Comparing oneself to others and buying an advantage has always been a risk. I'm glad I primarily play for hunting monsters, since what others can do doesn't bother me so much - I'm simply happy with what I can do on my budget (they did get $50 out of me here - impressive). If I win in PvP, great. If I don't, got a big health rune - nice to have sunk so much energy into that before now that each point of stamina is so much more valuable.

I do want to point out: chest generals were only marginally better than oracle generals for a very long time. When promotions were released initially, suddenly a 2 or 3 star chest general was so much better than any favor general that for some it was worth cost. Now chest generals are marginally better again, but the scale is multiplied by at least 12 (that is, a full favor general costs 360FP instead of 30.) So that means if it took someone $400 compared to $5 before to get a favor general (note that is about 2400 fp, or 90 spins giving a good chance of getting an epic drop) then we might expect $4000 compared to $50 now (but of course, the system is set-up so that $4000, or ~ 24000 FP would yield 24000/80*3 /80... hmm, 900 spins and 900/80 is close to 12 generals, just need to not get screwed over. So, the whole spending scale has been effectively multiplied by about 10. That's quite interesting in vaccuum where most people have unlimited financial resources). The problem, of course, is viewing money spent on the game as a future "investment" instead of "must pay off in the short term" spending.

Another fix here is going malekus on all chest general stats. But again, spending 10x as much has never gotten an item even twice as good. No one says you have to spend. The "is f2p dead?" threads are amusing: I don't see any problem with f2p if you like to cooperate and slay monsters; battles between f2p remain battles between f2p, only more players may move to a different peer group. It is more likely this update kills off some of the big spending for a while until this perceived massive slap in the face is soothed with another carrot of some kind. A good lesson: gotta know the business of the game is to make money and play accordingly.

And last year, we had double general stats in PvP for about 10 months, which now looks like a trial for promotions (4 stars), and most players didn't seem to notice or care. Now that the numbers are out in the open and not everyone is getting them at the same pace, and it is easy to see the power creep (My damage on monsters has gone up 40%, for example), we have a bigger problem.

Not sure how this will play out. Looking forward to farming red crystals on sunday here.

[TheImpaler]

I give two impaling stakes up (like thumbs, only different)