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Lost Dungeon builds

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  • Lost Dungeon builds

    Any particular skills that people have found more effective than others? Or any that are garbage? Personally I find evade useful, its like a straight up HP boost.
    Healing after x rounds seems much less useful as by the time I reach mobs that require more than 5 hits (thus triggering the skill), the healing rate is feeble compared to the damage being taken.

    The 50% heal chance on bleed damage looks good but I've never managed to get enough bleed chance to make a useful synergy.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Gaffers View Post
    Any particular skills that people have found more effective than others? Or any that are garbage? Personally I find evade useful, its like a straight up HP boost.
    Healing after x rounds seems much less useful as by the time I reach mobs that require more than 5 hits (thus triggering the skill), the healing rate is feeble compared to the damage being taken.

    The 50% heal chance on bleed damage looks good but I've never managed to get enough bleed chance to make a useful synergy.

    1/ If you set the benchmark as choosing random trinkets, choosing random powers, and hitting random Physical vs Magic attacks, you would get an average outcome, eg you reach the most likely certain stage (eg the maximum likelihood estimator or highest point on the probability density function).

    So the question is by discerning which trinket to get, which powers to get, and choosing physical vs magic attack, you would end up much further than the benchmark.

    2/ For trinket, the Blood Wine Glass of the Witch is the most valuable trinket based on my experience … up to and including 300 health after killing a monster. I unlocked every trinket except for Ring (Critic buff) and Sword (health buff after a health debuff) both with the orange background

    3/ How to build a toon depends on your goals and constraints

    ​​​​​​- you can employ Maximum Boldness Strategy, eg Go big or go home, or swing for the fences, etc. One approach is put all ten powers into Attack (no evade, no healing, etc).

    nice article explaining the math behind “Bold Strategy”

    - you can employ a mean-variance strategy (which I did since I am risk adverse)

    - you can employ a strategy to grind your way (3 evades, 5 heals, etc)

    - there are so many strategies

    4/ You need to understand what is the “Basis” for damage

    Suppose your first pick is between +15 Attack or +6% physical damage. If you are hitting 100 dmg per token (based on the log), +15 Attack is superior. That is a fixed buff.

    Then you have buffs that are derivatives, eg it’s value derived from something. Suppose, you have +2.3% dmg per 10% loss in health: this buff isn’t value if your health is near 100% but incredibly valuable when you have 10% health left.

    Then there are damages based off or derive from the monster’s health and the same buff does more damage when the monster has bigger health in the later stages. Same buff but basis changes over time.

    5/ Some Powers have variances and some don’t. Is +5% critic better than +15 Attack assuming you hit 100 dmg per token before any buffs. A critic hit is say 250 dmg so the marginal dmg is 150 (250 less original basis of 100). So the expected value is 0.05 * 150 = 7.5 dmg (this is a quick and dirty estimator)

    You have 95% non-critical at 100 dmg and 5% critical at 250 = 95 + 12.5 = 107.5 dmg (this should be the correct way)

    +15 > +7.5 in this example.

    The problem comes up when the critical buff does higher expected dmg than the fixed buff. You have to ask yourself, do you want the variance?

    6/ If you have the Blood Wine Glass at max value, you don’t need Heals or Evades for the first 2 stages per my experience.

    7/ Buffs have value at the margin: When you are running out of health, heal buffs are valuable; when the monsters does larger damages per hit, evade buffs are more valuable. The problem is bird in hand is better than two in the buff so having an Evade buff may not be optimal at the current stage but acts as an insurance policy for future stages when you don’t know if an evade buff will show up.

    I’ll leave more information once the Event is over.


    • #3
      Disclaimer: The following are my views; feel free to disagree with my views.

      1/ The correct answer to quantify a buff’s value is based on the margin. It was the Austrian or Marginalist Economists that finally solve the Water vs Diamond paradox.

      What is something worth: It’s marginal value, eg the value of the next unit. If you have many people bidding on a widget, then the value of the widget is the marginal value or the one that bids the highest.

      What is an independent buff worth? It’s marginal value.

      Buffs that have interactive effects are a bit more challenging, eg Piercing Dagger is a low grade trinket but interacts with Critical buffs. And, a +Dmg buff interacts with a Critical buff which then interacts with the Piercing Dagger. We know the marginal answer since the output is revealed in the log. What we like to know is before you pick the Trinket, powers, etc. and what that marginal value is.

      So here is an example to break down the following buff’s value:

      Buff is: When attacking a monster, for every 8% Max HP owned by the monster, Physical and Magical Damage +X% (where X% is 1.8, 2.1, or 2.3).

      The basis is the monster’s health; as the monster gets more health in later stages, this buff will do more damage (ceteris paribus or other things being equal).

      Assume the monster has 100% starting health. 100% / 8% = 12.5X with the midpoint at 6.25X (I don’t know how it got coded, eg if it was floored, truncated, rounded, etc).

      On average, you will do 6.25X of 1.8, 2.1, or 2.3.

      6.25 * 1.8% = 11.25%
      6.25 * 2.1% = 13.125%
      6.25 * 2.3% = 14.375%

      If you first damage off the Dungeon was 100 dmg per token, then you are looking at an average of 11.25 dmg per token, 13.125 dmg per token, and 14.375 dmg per token respectively.

      However, I found a bias, the early stage monsters don’t have enough health to survive 3 tokens so the average dmg % was super high. It was disproportionately higher than expected average and this buff was less valuable as the monsters gained more health and I reverted to the mean (or mean reversion).

      The value of a critic buff was best when the mob had more health than less health.


      - Stand alone or independent buffs are very easy to solve and quantify. Interactive buffs are higher order or multi-axis problems that are incredibly hard to put one’s hands around it.

      - Try to solve the marginal value; heal buff or evade buff doesn’t add much is Stage 1 or 2 for me; but in later stages they get incredibly valuable as their marginal value changes DESPITE it being a fixed buff.


      • #4
        Take the Evade buff, which is useless to me in Stage 1 & Stage 2 because of my Trinket that heals 100 health plus 1% of missing health. The monster damages are clearly offset in these first 2 stages by said trinket.

        Suppose the Evade buff was +5%. I would never choose it unless it was the best of the worst three choices (hence my name bestamongsttheworst shortened to BATW).

        So when do I start choosing the Evade buff? Around Stage 4 or later.

        So why does the +5% Evade buff gain value? Because it’s marginal value got higher.

        So what happened to make the marginal value higher if the Evade buff is FIXED at EFFEN 5%? Because of 2 changes:

        - Monsters have more health
        - Monsters do more damage per hit
        - the EFFEN interactive effect of Monsters with more health hitting me with more damage (this is the secondary effect due to the 2 primary effects changing)

        Recall basic algebra of a & b. If you squared each one you get a^2 and b^2 but if you squared (a + b), you get a^2 plus b^2 plus the EFFEN interactive effect of 2ab. That 2ab effect rears it’s ugly head in later stages.

        Summary: The marginal value changed because the monster changed. That +5% Evade buff that was useless in the beginning is so valuable at later stages. Nothing happened to the Evade buff. What happened was the basis for monsters changed.

        Hope this helps and feel free to disagree with me (and established economics).


        • #5
          Forgot to mention, if you hit the Stats button (labeled STATE), it gives you a summary of your stats vs upper limit:

          Physical damage bonus:11%(upper limited 250%)

          Critical hit bonus:16%(upper limited 45%)

          Critical Damage bonus:30%(upper limited 200%)

          Magical damage bonus:0%(upper limited 280%)

          Fire Enchant bonus:0%(upper limited 50%)

          Wind Enchant bonus:0%(upper limited 50%)

          Water Enchant bonus:0%(upper limited 50%)

          Elemental damage bonus:0%(upper limited 100%)

          Evade:0%(upper limited 40%)

          every 5 attacks‘s healing:0(upper limited 200)

          Restored bonus:30%(upper limited 50%)

          Final Damage:0%(upper limited 300%)


          • #6
            I’ll give an example to show why it is difficult to discern a “build” for this Event.

            I stated the value of a buff is it’s marginal value because it is what the principles of economics tell us. But that is just the starting point.

            Suppose you were deciding to choose between 30 health every 5th token (eg every fifth consecutive round) vs Evade of +8%.

            1/ Your heal buff is only valuable if you make it to each fifth consecutive token used. For example, if it takes you 4 tokens to kill a monster, that buff is useless. At 9 tokens, the buff fired off one time. At 13 tokens, the buff fired off twice. The math concept of modulus is helpful because you want the buff to trigger without any remainders.

            2/ Your Evade buff depends on the basis, which is primarily damage per hit by the monster (which increases as you advance or complete stages). If the average dmg per hit is 60, then the Evade buff at 8% is worth 4.8 dmg per token on an expected value basis, eg on average.

            For parity, you have a heal buff worth 30 health every fifth token compared against avoiding 24 dmg (5 * 4.8) on average every five tokens. So when we look at the buff’s value for comparison, looking after 5 rounds is a good start.

            3/ Then you need to consider the following (not an inclusive list):
            - the health buff is binary: it doesn’t work the first four tokens of every five tokens
            - the Evade buff is binary on each token
            - the health buff effect is static, heals an immutable 30 health on every 5th token
            - the Evade buff’s effect is dynamic as it’s marginal value is a derivative (eg derived from something else from the monster’s dmg per hit on you, which grows over time).

            4/ To make this simple: the concept you use to discern which buff to choose is to take the the buff that gives you the highest and best value. In economics, we call this concept Present Value. The buff that gives you the highest present value is the one you choose.


            In plain English, you look into the future as best as you can. You try to calculate each buff’s value over the remaining stages and then discount that stream of values by a discount rate. That discount rate brings all future values of the buff to a present value. For example the heal buff has a higher discount rate because it’s buff fires off every fifth token vs evade having a chance to fire off each token.

            However, that is just too difficult to look at the economics so comparing 30 heals every fifth round vs some expected savings from Evade over the same 5 rounds is a pretty good test to use. If you have a lot of health and many stages to go, the Evade buff gets larger over time. If you are going to die quickly, Evade is worth less while the Heal buff might get you a few more stages. That is why you need to look into the future.

            This stuff is complicated. If you understand the economics, at least you know where to start and how to make better decisions. You look into the future and then form expectations and use those expectations to make the best decision. There will be things outside of your control, eg number of times Evade fired off, etc but you make the decision today on which buff will give the highest present value.


            • #7
              Forgot to add: At Stage 8 - 10, the Boss attacks cannot be dodged, eg Evade buff is useless.

              This is stage where I mostly die.

              You can gamble by replacing your Evade buffs going into Stage 8 - 10 and if you survive, hope to get Evade buffs in future picks. OR

              You can keep your Evade buffs knowing it is taking up valuable space. But know your Evade buff works again in Stage 9 - 1.

              Either choice is tough.


              • #8
                In my last run, I hit the wall at Stage 8 - 10. This time I removed my Evade buffs for that stage and that action allowed me to get to Stage 9 - 1.

                Stage 8 - 10 is just brutal. In hindsight I should have swapped out a heal buff for the Evade buff but I did not get good choices leading up to Stage 8 - 10.

                And for clarification: The Blood Wine Glass heals a max of 200 per monster.

                There is a lot of randomness at work and when I got the powers that I wanted and got extra critical hits, it made all the difference.


                • #9
                  One of my builds was to farm Dungeon Dust. The build was a maximum boldness build: All attack-related for the 10 Powers.

                  Here, I got a critical hit on the first token on Stage 3 - 4:

                  [Batw] has hit the mark and dealt a Critical Strike to Entangling Spider, causing a lot of damage to it!
                  [Batw] dealt [1653] Final damage to Entangling Spider!
                  Prophet Crystal Ball gives you the power of a prophet, and your Final Damage is increased by 16%!
                  Your crit hit has wakened the slumbering power of Piercing Dagger of the Fallen, your Crit Damage has increased by 30% and Physical Damage has increased by 15% !
                  You have recovered [102] Health.With the mystic power of Blood Wine Glass of the Witch, you recovered extra health from the demise of Entangling Spider.
                  Entangling Spider dealt [0] damage to you.

                  As point of reference, my base attack dmg was roughly 280 before the 10 buffs. So I converted a 280 base dmg to 1,653 (a factor of 5.9X) with all the bells and whistles. This is maximum boldness, which is a risky strategy.


                  • #10
                    Thanks, that's a great write up, appreciate the time you put in.

                    I go Max Boldness on the last run, knowing that the event will end before I die