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Thread: 3rd Slot Def Alliance Inquiry

  1. #11

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    Evaluating worth:

    Statistics mean everything, and statistics are unique.

    These are mine:


    In my case: 29,571 statDef

    Level 69 2 star Azriel gives me 1,148 Defense (1,537-389) more than 5 star level 80 Katherine.

    The cost for this:
    Blue Crystals: 62; Green Crystals: 244; Red Crystals: 339.

    And if I did the math correctly, 272 potions were used to get 23,120,000 million general experience.

    Leveling tier XII generals is not easy. Those crystals would get Barbarus (Tier V) to level 69, but would only require 5,780,000 experience or 68 potions.


    *Note: I calculate based upon the old 0.1% per point (1000 = 10%). This is no longer the case with the addition of threshold bonuses which theoretically can almost double the amount of actual pierce. But, those details only impact the specific analysis in terms of whether or not it applies to another player's decision making, it is not so significant to do the extra calculations given that I'm comparing 52 PR, though it does take place at the 800Res threshold.
    Last edited by Da Wimsta; 02-23-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogoo View Post

    Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking purely about defensive effectiveness (i.e. what will determine who wins the duel). Not talking about generals which improve GB class powers. And I'm not taking into account the difficulty to promote the generals I'm talking about. Just trying to determine which alliance would be the best if you can afford anything.

    Tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe all defensive generals end up having mostly the same atk/def stats at a high level / high promotion (because the stats difference from lvl 1 or 4 doesn't make much difference anymore). So I don't think taking the stats into account will change much (except if you want to use Malekus). And I think TTK would have the highest stats of all defensive generals anyway? And would have around +150 def compared to another general like Kath or Ravendor at lvl 80 and 5 stars.

    And yes, let's take the case of a player which has enough defensive power to make resistance relevant.

    So let's look at the boost gained from abilities.
    If you take this alliance for instance, all at level 80 (1 star, easier to get data directly from the wiki):

    TTK - Hera - Azriel (with 1180 DP, I think it's not too hard to reach)

    You get:
    +98 Physical Resistance (TTK)
    +74 to all Elemental Resistance = +296 Elemental Resistance (Hera)
    +90 or 91 Physical Resistance (Azriel)

    For a total of +188 PR and +296 ER.


    Now ofc I may be missing something, but I don't see how you can get a much bigger boost than that.
    If it is actually possible I'll be glad to learn how.

    You can with Layla, however I haven't done the calculation and she's a balanced general which will reduce the alliance's stats, so in the end idk which would be better - but the Layla alliance would probably be better for someone with a lot of def.

    Also I know depending on your opponent some of your resistance may be useless, but I don't think it changes things here.
    For the record, it was the suggestion of using Katherine which I vigorously opposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogoo View Post
    So the best defensive alliances would be:
    1) Layla - TTT / Kath - Hera
    2) TTT / Kath - Hera - Azriel
    What you've offered

    Quote Originally Posted by gogoo View Post
    TTK - Hera - Azriel (with 1180 DP, I think it's not too hard to reach)

    You get:
    +98 Physical Resistance (TTK)
    +74 to all Elemental Resistance = +296 Elemental Resistance (Hera)
    +90 or 91 Physical Resistance (Azriel)

    For a total of +188 PR and +296 ER.
    This is something I fully support as an improvement.
    The thing is that an Elemental General is still better than TTK.

    The gain in slot one res makes up for the loss in Hera's abilities.

    I think this would be the hierarchy:

    Layla--Hera--Raven

    Raven--Hera--Raven > TTK--Hera--Azriel

    Raven--Kendra--Azriel

    Raven--Kendra--Zolthar

    Raven--Kendra--Katherine
    Last edited by Da Wimsta; 02-27-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    For the record, it was the suggestion of using Katherine which I vigorously opposed.
    You also then said the alliance I suggested, whether it was with Kath or TTK, still "wouldn't make sense". So I used TTK for my calculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    This is something I fully support as an improvement.
    The thing is that an Elemental General is still better than TTK.

    The gain in slot one res makes up for the loss in Hera's abilities.

    I think this would be the hierarchy:

    Layla--Hera--Azriel

    Raven--Hera--Azriel > TTK--Hera--Azriel
    So let's do some calculations for your suggested top 2 alliances and my suggested top 2 alliances.

    Done with all generals lvl 80, 1 star.

    Top 1 alliance
    Layla--Hera--Azriel VS Layla - TTK - Hera


    Layla
    +51.85% ability boost

    Hera
    +296 ER
    => +449 ER with Layla
    (same in both alliances)

    Azriel
    1355 DP * 7.7% = +104 PR
    = +158 PR with Layla

    TTK
    +98 PR
    => +149 PR with Layla

    That's only 9 PR difference between your number 1 alliance and my number 1 alliance, which you said "didn't make any sense".

    And that's only if you have all the BIS DP items in the game, which most people won't have since it requires several Legendary Alchemies including Phantom alchemies.

    Also Azriel is aggressive while TTK is defensive and has better stats to start with, and also gives +149 def with Layla.
    Even though it's in the 3rd spot of the alliance, for most people I think the stats boost + def boost might be better than +9 PR.

    Maybe not, but you said my n1 alliance didn't make any sense and your n1 has only +9 additional PR and less def.
    Unless a highly star'd Azriel (which would be very hard to obtain) is so much better than a highly star'd TTK, I really don't see how you reached your conclusion.


    Top 2 alliance
    Raven--Hera--Azriel VS TTK--Hera--Azriel


    Raven--Hera--Azriel

    Raven:
    +73 Physical Resistance & +48 Fire Resistance
    Hera:
    +222 +37 = +259 ER
    Azriel:
    +104 PR

    Total:
    +307 ER
    +177 PR
    => +484 total resistance


    TTK--Hera--Azriel

    TTK
    +98 PR
    Hera
    +296 ER
    Azriel:
    +104 PR

    Total:
    +202 PR
    +296 ER
    => +498 total resistance

    Unless I made any mistake, the alliance I suggested is better by +14 resistance.
    Also it has more PR than your alliance, and the wiki says Physical pierce/resistance is better than elemental. Idk whether that's true, but it doesn't change the nature of the result anyway.

    Unless the promotion to 5 stars or more is more beneficial to Ravendor than it is to TTK?

    Even with Kath which gives +93 PR, the total for Kath--Hera--Azriel would be:
    +197 PR
    +296 ER
    => +493 total resistance

    Still better than your suggested alliance.

    Seems to me that Kath is better than the Elemental Res gens.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogoo View Post
    You also then said the alliance I suggested, whether it was with Kath or TTK, still "wouldn't make sense". So I used TTK for my calculation.



    So let's do some calculations for your suggested top 2 alliances and my suggested top 2 alliances.

    Done with all generals lvl 80, 1 star.

    Top 1 alliance
    Layla--Hera--Azriel VS Layla - TTK - Hera


    Layla
    +51.85% ability boost

    Hera
    +296 ER
    => +449 ER with Layla
    (same in both alliances)

    Azriel
    1355 DP * 7.7% = +104 PR
    = +158 PR with Layla

    TTK
    +98 PR
    => +149 PR with Layla

    That's only 9 PR difference between your number 1 alliance and my number 1 alliance, which you said "didn't make any sense".

    And that's only if you have all the BIS DP items in the game, which most people won't have since it requires several Legendary Alchemies including Phantom alchemies.

    Also Azriel is aggressive while TTK is defensive and has better stats to start with, and also gives +149 def with Layla.
    Even though it's in the 3rd spot of the alliance, for most people I think the stats boost + def boost might be better than +9 PR.

    Maybe not, but you said my n1 alliance didn't make any sense and your n1 has only +9 additional PR and less def.
    Unless a highly star'd Azriel (which would be very hard to obtain) is so much better than a highly star'd TTK, I really don't see how you reached your conclusion.


    Top 2 alliance
    Raven--Hera--Azriel VS TTK--Hera--Azriel


    Raven--Hera--Azriel

    Raven:
    +73 Physical Resistance & +48 Fire Resistance
    Hera:
    +222 +37 = +259 ER
    Azriel:
    +104 PR

    Total:
    +307 ER
    +177 PR
    => +484 total resistance


    TTK--Hera--Azriel

    TTK
    +98 PR
    Hera
    +296 ER
    Azriel:
    +104 PR

    Total:
    +202 PR
    +296 ER
    => +498 total resistance

    Unless I made any mistake, the alliance I suggested is better by +14 resistance.
    Also it has more PR than your alliance, and the wiki says Physical pierce/resistance is better than elemental. Idk whether that's true, but it doesn't change the nature of the result anyway.

    Unless the promotion to 5 stars or more is more beneficial to Ravendor than it is to TTK?

    Even with Kath which gives +93 PR, the total for Kath--Hera--Azriel would be:
    +197 PR
    +296 ER
    => +493 total resistance

    Still better than your suggested alliance.

    Seems to me that Kath is better than the Elemental Res gens.
    You're right, my post shouldn't have said Azriel, and the only excuse I can muster is extreme exhaustion.
    Azriel's benefit only kicks in when Another PR generals comes earlier in the alliance.


    You're also wrong in conflating ER and PR, you can't do this.

    You're also also wrong that Kath is better than ER generals, she isn't.
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  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    You're right, my post shouldn't have said Azriel, and the only excuse I can muster is extreme exhaustion.
    Azriel's benefit only kicks in when Another PR generals comes earlier in the alliance.


    You're also wrong in conflating ER and PR, you can't do this.

    You're also also wrong that Kath is better than ER generals, she isn't.
    That's not true IMO for any alliance with Hera in as number 3. The elemental res of an ER gen is wiped out by Hera, so you are only left with whatever physical res is left. Therefore, the benefit of a pure physical res gen is much more effective.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    You're also wrong in conflating ER and PR, you can't do this.
    Indeed. In practice, even combining each type of ER makes no sense.

    But since we're talking in general and not evaluating a single duel between 2 players (because that would make no sense in evaluating which alliance is better in general), it's still the best thing to do in order to compare different alliances.
    Or otherwise, how do you compare them? How can you say one is better than the other?

    You're just stating some stuff that you like as if it were the truth. It looks to me like you just want to hate on Kath for some weird reason (so you can tell devs they're stupid for offering another Kath pack, and tell other players they're stupid for buying this pack, apparently).


    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    You're also also wrong that Kath is better than ER generals, she isn't.
    Indeed, on her own, Kath is bad compared to any of the 4 ER generals.
    But we're talking about alliances here (because who fights with 1 single general not linked to 2 others?).

    So no, Kath is better, I just proved it in my previous post.

    If you really don't want to combine PR and ER to compare the alliances:

    Raven--Hera--Azriel
    +177 PR
    +307 ER

    Kath--Hera--Azriel
    +197 PR => +20 PR
    +296 ER => -11 ER

    With the Kath alliance you gain more PR than you lose ER.
    I can stop there and we already see the alliance with Kath is better.

    I can also go a bit further and say that moreover, PR is better than ER. Because if your opponents beats you in the physical department, his attack will get a bigger bonus than if he beats you in the elemental department.

    Quotes from the wiki:

    Physical Pierce and resistance are more valuable that equivalent amounts of elemental pierce and resistance. If you have to choose one or the other, physical will provide more value.
    There is a threshold bonus applied to Elemental pierce and Elemental resistance similar to to the bonus applied to physical pierce and resistance, however, elemental resistance threshold bonus is not as far along the curve by an amount to result in approximately 15-20% less than physical bonus, depending on position in the curve, in the range of pierce used in the game, which is roughly 0-2000.
    This is from Retribution who has done extensive testing on pierce and resistance.

    Anyway, whether that's true doesn't change the outcome in this case, the Kath alliance doesn't need this to be better.
    Last edited by gogoo; 02-27-2019 at 08:48 PM.

  7. Default

    Layla Alliance Breakdown:
    Current Ability:
    Master: +42.1% Clone of Alliance General Ability
    +133.574 Physical Resistance
    +78.155 to Earth Resistance
    +78.155 to Fire Resistance
    +78.155 to Water Resistance
    +78.155 to Wind Resistance
    Current Stats:
    +453 Attack and +751 Defense

    Layla(lvl15 1star)/Kat (5star lvl 65)/ Hera (2star lvl 40) Not sure I can do better..do not have Azriel..TTK 2 star

    What about lower level players? (Talking not the promo pack buyers) will not have Hera/Layla (maybe not even Azriel) but can now get TTK..most invested into Kat by now.
    Kat-TTK-Rav?
    Thoughts?

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Resurrection View Post
    That's not true IMO for any alliance with Hera in as number 3. The elemental res of an ER gen is wiped out by Hera, so you are only left with whatever physical res is left. Therefore, the benefit of a pure physical res gen is much more effective.
    If Hera is in slot 3 how does she impact slot 2 or 1?

    Am I missing something about how Hera works?
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  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Wimsta View Post
    If Hera is in slot 3 how does she impact slot 2 or 1?

    Am I missing something about how Hera works?
    Well, in my case I have a level 80 Hera which gives me 77 to all elemental resistance. So my 6 star level 80 Ravendor in level offers me nothing in slot 2 except the stats and the physical resistance. (Since ravs fire resistance is wiped out by Heras) Same would occur if I had Kendra in that alliance. Therefore, for me, in the absence of having Layla or Azriel it would probably be better for me to have a decently promoted TTK in 1, Kat in 2 and Hera in 3.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Resurrection View Post
    Well, in my case I have a level 80 Hera which gives me 77 to all elemental resistance. So my 6 star level 80 Ravendor in level offers me nothing in slot 2 except the stats and the physical resistance. (Since ravs fire resistance is wiped out by Heras) Same would occur if I had Kendra in that alliance. Therefore, for me, in the absence of having Layla or Azriel it would probably be better for me to have a decently promoted TTK in 1, Kat in 2 and Hera in 3.
    Can you post a screen shot of the alliance since that isn't the way I thought it was supposed to work and I don't have Hera?
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