View Full Version : weapon stats vs pierce?

I'm not sure how much the stats of a weapon count in the general attack formula, so now I need help in deciding what to do:

(let's leave the fire/water/etc pierce/rez aside for now)

Flamebound Halberd 110/80, 25 pierce + ingot of 25 pierce=50 pierce

or Elite Warbringer Longblade 60/50, 60 pierce + ingot=85 pierce?

eA 6570 (eD 5930)

raw A is 5296

if I go with the elite, that 35 extra pierce is a 3.5% boost so 229.95 attack for eA or 185.36 to raw attack

how much do the weapon's stats count? which one is better?

Phalarus

12-19-2015, 08:22 PM

^mostly that

weapon stats just factor into your overall attack for pvp. For monsters they factor in based on a formula developed by thexbob.

Basically, use one for pvp and the other for monster hunting :)

basically, nobody knows. great game we're playing here, in the dark :(

thanks for trying!

Phalarus

12-20-2015, 02:39 PM

The Math ninja is the light :p

basically, nobody knows. great game we're playing here, in the dark :(

thanks for trying!

The correct answer depends on the defender. If your additional Pierce does not exceed your defender's resistance, then your marginal +35 piece or 3.5% value adds no value to your attack.[A] In constrast, if your Pierce already exceeds your defender's resistance, then yes you get the extra 3.5% added to your eAtk.

Basically, you are asking a question that is contingent on another value (many times you just don't know that value). What people do is estimate their expected value of the Pierce and go from there.

The second point is to be careful of the "basis effect". Stats on gear is one thing, but the Pierce bonus (if any) is based off your eAtk.

Lastly, you ought to read this post by thexbob that covers your topic: http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?78559-Musings-on-pierce-resist-EAtk-EDef-Enrage-DF

In summary, you asked a question where someone answers with: "It depends".

Cheers

[A] even though the Pierce adds no benefit to your attack, it has some benefit in that it negated 35 resistance from the defender and lowered his eDef.

Da Wimsta

12-21-2015, 05:13 AM

BAtW is mostly right, but he neglected to mention that there are also many threads detailing how to evaluate what your best option are.

Castlin

12-21-2015, 08:14 PM

Yeah it depends is indeed the correct answer.

thank you, Bestamongsttheworst. You've made some good points.

I'll read that thread, it might give me more ideas.

Few people have a ton of resistance in this game, most went after pierce. so I probably already have more pierce than most people's res. I had more than 500 last time I checked. of course, this is not math, is mass (psychology).

Your second point is redundant. You may have noticed that I already knew and counted in the "basis effect" you speak of. In the fact that I only gave you effective stats, not raw ones. As I'm writing this, we're wasting more precious time on this.

IF the devs would be kind enough to give us some formula based on which they calculate wins and losses, I could do the math and see if the damned weapons stats have more or less to add than a % to my eStats the pierce/res do. I kinda hoped they did since the last time I read the forums. it seemed the decent thing to do since even I have now several gear in each category with very high stats (and diff elemental pierce/res) vs the warbringer gear with lots of pierce/res - so there's a ton more decisions to make - and impossible to make with no information.

again. I just hoped somehow the formula has become available since the last time I was here. I stand corrected. I know what I'll do: I'll send the devs as many complaints as I can until they answer me.

PS lovely threads "about this issue", but let's NOT ignore the even lovelier word ASSUMPTION that kinda laughs* on every bit of math in there. (*the polite euphemism instead of what I'm actually thinking)

thanks! happy new year!

Elvis Presley

12-26-2015, 08:04 AM

I'm not sure how much the stats of a weapon count in the general attack formula, so now I need help in deciding what to do:

(let's leave the fire/water/etc pierce/rez aside for now)

Flamebound Halberd 110/80, 25 pierce + ingot of 25 pierce=50 pierce

or Elite Warbringer Longblade 60/50, 60 pierce + ingot=85 pierce?

eA 6570 (eD 5930)

raw A is 5296

if I go with the elite, that 35 extra pierce is a 3.5% boost so 229.95 attack for eA or 185.36 to raw attack

how much do the weapon's stats count? which one is better?

It very much looks like, without any hard confirmation, that equipment attack is EQUAL to player attack, except that they are treated separately when duelling. In a duel, the attacker's eAtk compounded by piercing and elemental piercing multipliers is compared to the defender's eDef compounded by resistance and probably elemental resistance. Separate to this, or perhaps as an ADDITION to the compounded eAtk plus pierce, a player's equipment attack is compared to his opponent's equipment defense. Most probably that second comparison just gets added into the player eAtk vs eDef comparison, much the same way a random factor gets added in at the end to determine a win or a loss. So a point of equipment attack is the same weight as 1 point of raw attack stat, only equipment attack doesn't get compounded by any piercing or resistance, it's just a straight 1 point of equipment attack added at the end with the random factor also added in at the end to determine a win or a loss.

So, your 50 point attack difference in weapons is roughly comparable as an addition to what you get for your eAtk plus pierce, and it looks like your pierce difference of 229.95 outweighs the 50 point loss from equipment attack stats, and it outweighs it by about 179.95 final computed attack.

The evidence I have comes from duelling with very low level characters, virtually no attack stat at all and no eAtk and no piercing or resistance. Equipment stats become the major factor in determining the win or loss with the small random factor added in, and it definitely is a straight equipment attack versus equipment defense comparison. Also noted is that a hero's attack and defense stats are treated exactly the same as equipment attack and defense stats, equivalent to equipment attack and defense, and roughly equivalent to player raw attack and raw defense.

Your second point is redundant. You may have noticed that I already knew and counted in the "basis effect" you speak of. In the fact that I only gave you effective stats, not raw ones. As I'm writing this, we're wasting more precious time on this.

If you think that second point is redundant, then you are like most people as in it went over your head. Even thexbob, who has a PhD in math, revisited his analysis and wrote that lengthy post in part due to basis effect. For example, not all BSI builds are homogeneous, and in fact I suggested that cannon builds are the easiest to bounce when factoring the "basis" effect.

Or said different if you really had factored in the basis effect as you have asserted, then how come you did not factor in the contingent value. Here is what I am trying to convey: there are different orders of effects, and thus different associated basis effects, respectively. If you considered one basis effect, then why not consider all of them or the most important ones.

In the case of cannons who are reaching up, the benefit from Pierce is huge due to their disproportionate allocation of SP into attack. Therefore, the marginal benefit of an additional +10 resistance negates a disporportionate eAtK. That +10 resistance may come from an insignificant Pierce of gear with low stats, but against the cannon, the benefits are almost incalculable. In case of thexbob, the more resist that he adds, the more he will bounce these types of cannons. My point to thexbob is don't waste your time chasing gears that have IA benefits, and instead chase gear with more resistance. thexbob has a level 80 Sahar so extra IA's are nice, but nowhere as nice as extra resistance.

Cheers.

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