Communication by the devs

[Elandal]

From the Hawk:

Im sorry, but I do NOT agree with Kori locking that thread, and I do not think this conversation is over. You can't ask questions like that, and only have the conversation available when you are online. I knew that a lot of the people who had stuff to say were not here at the time. I would not appreciate someone unlocking my thread without a conversation about it beforehand, so I am going to leave Kori's thread alone. However, I will sticky this one, and it can be the OFFICIAL thread for any forum member to respond to the topic. but we will keep the conversation STRICTLY to this topic. I will be monitoring it as I can, and I will delete any post that goes astray. Kori can check it at her liesure.

EDIT: This does NOT mean start your post off with the word communication, then go into a rant about the exploit. This thread is for comment on what you think of the devs communication skills, or lack thereof.



Today, Kori create a thread titled Communication (http://castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?t=56885). It was locked about an hour later by herself, wasn't sticked, and wasn't announced. It was actually on the second page already when I was catching up the forum.

Tell you something: that's bad communication. I hope some mod stickies it, summarizes it, or copies Kori's first and last posts from the thread to a sticky.

As it's locked, I'll talk about the issue in this new thread.

First, it was noted that the CA ingame news is the first and, to many players, only place of communication from devs to players. This was noted by Kori, so we can hope for it to be used a bit more.

Second, FB page about the game was noted as an important place for communications. Kori noted that FB had frowned upon using that, which is really really weird - ever looked at how much Zynga spams their game pages? I hope it has been a misunderstanding or alike, and that CA Staff can use the game FB page (or, if necessary, create a separate "CA Fans" page for purpose of communication) to announce and explain. Pages aren't well suited for discussion, but that's what this support forum is for.

Third, announcements have been sparse. Kori noted that they felt not explaining things allowed users to experience them better, which might be true to some degree. But all new features and changes should be announced.
I feel that CoH was very badly handled, as it was never announced anywhere officially - it just appeared, and even then it worked differently for different people: it was not possible to know what it's supposed to be, but the timer lent to the idea that it's similar to egg gift events. Any announcement would've been better than none, and in case of limited time event (which is how it looked to players), it should've been very clearly explained from get go: send requests to inactive players only, at most one gift per inactive player.

I hope Kori (and/or other members of Phoenix Age staff) do in the future take the time to keep players updated by eg. "hi, it's sunny here and we're working on something interesting that we hope to release within a month" notice if there really is nothing to say weekly. That's in addition to what is currently posted, the ingame announcement (and identical posts by Vulcan here in Herald/News) which are really the captain obvious ones. CoH was much more important to announce, as it was new feature - monthly general already is on the Home page of CA, and there isn't anything in the news that isn't on the general.

Fourth, this support forum is hard to use, navigate, and find things in. Anything of any importance should be posted so that it can't be missed: the CA Herald area. It's almost unused currently, with, well, Vulcan's posts that are a copy of the ingame news (whether they're actually copies of Vulcan's news here, or both copies of in-company newsroll is irrelevant). Except, WOW!, I found Kori's post there from today morning (to me, so it's like yesterday evening for US West Coast). That post is a wonderful example of communications! Great! Superb! We're on the right track, clearly :) Also, linking to it in the ingame news is The Right Thing to do.

Fifth, a way to contact the devs that gives the user a copy, hopefully with automated response that tells the Issue has been received, and always, ALWAYS, a reply to it later when it's actually handled. A support ticket system.
Facebook report -link and form leave nothing for the user. I don't have copy of a report I sent. I receive no confirmation that the report has been received by Phoenix Age. Unfortunatelly, this leads me to believe that the company staff does not even read all the reports sent - they in no way indicate they have received it, read it, done something about it, and I can see nothing change in the subject of my report.
I remember four times I've contacted devs using this method. Might be I've used it a few more times, but four I can easily name. Exactly one time did I receive a response - three times I did NOT receive any response at all. And the times I did not receive responses were IMHO more serious issues than the one time that I did receive response (although I consider that one very important too, as it deals with the security of CA the game in the form of checking inputs and validating them).
If I do not receive even acknowledgement of the fact that a report has been made and received, will I bother using that report feature again? Honestly?


I understand that all of this is work that takes time, and that time is out of something else. But how can communications not be of the highest priority?

I have quit games because of feeling that the company held players in contempt by not communicating. CA is a great game. I have great friends with whom I play. We have lots of fun. I'm not quitting. I'm going to buy FP in the future too, I'm not calling for boycotts. I'm actually calming down already. Give me a week or two and I'll forgive you yet again. But please, let it not happen again.

[Bristolen]

i didnt like the thread was locked either, i didnt even see thread when foruming today until it was locked =/

ill read rest of your post and respond in a bit. lappy wants a break from CA forums ;)

[Punkle]

this is the only communication from Kori have seen today:
http://i.imgur.com/xZgdC.png

Good thread Elandel. Many good points :)

[lfcfrom1970]

this is the only communication from Kori have seen today:
http://i.imgur.com/xZgdC.png

Good thread Elandel. Many good points :)

This is the thread in question: http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?t=56885

Kori said it would be re-opened but was logging off. I think that. A) She/He forgot to re-open it before logging off or B) Closed it till she/he is back online to answer questions without having a 30 page back log.

[kenster]

I hate the part about reactivating the feature, will there permanently be a feature that allows me to send requests to people no longer on facebook and taunt me for the rest of my CA days.

[Punkle]

I saw the thread, and reported it to get it sticky! Silly to have a thread about communications (and the lack of it) and *not* sticky it.. :P

[Bristolen]

with hidra and marinetanker supposedly taking a lot of work off kori in tech support, that might free kori up to do more communication to gamers elsewhere on forums. i havent looked at tech support lately, but i noticed hidra posts when they resolve an issue - that is a good trend to start. shows visibility that reports/issues do get fixed or at least looked at.

the general sense that devs dont take peoples suggestions also needs to be addressed. people say stuff like "devs never listen to us or take player suggestions into account!!!%111!!1". its like these people either have short memories or zero idea what player suggestions have been. sad part is they barely get corrected, and people go "YEAH!!! STOOPOD DEVS NEVAR LISTEN TO US!!!1111" :rolleyes:

it would be nice if every once in a while a dev posted in suggestion forum that an idea is completely unworkable for x,y, or z reason or steer the topic on to what they want discussed more in-depth specifically. the devs can even start their own threads in suggestion forum. at least shows they are in that section, and people believe devs read their own topics right?

and needless to say. i do want devs to fix old bugs and glitches. reading the 100th thread on the same stupid bug in suggestion forum, tech support, or general discussion does nothing but clog up this forum, makes people keep persisting in their beliefs devs do nothing to fix game, and makes players alienated and apathetic about a game devs dont seem to care to fix. if these old issues get resolved; perhaps people will have a new outlook and posting demeanor in their threads and respect for devs. and we can move on as a playerbase to discussing the present issues and future of game. :cool:

[Anisixia]

Kori did say she wanted to lock it so she could refer back to it. Too big and it would have been unmanageable. True to a point I suppose.

I'm glad they took the suggestion of in-game presence and linking back to the forums. That's a great start. Now for consistency...

[Tallulah]

Second, FB page about the game was noted as an important place for communications. Kori noted that FB had frowned upon using that, which is really really weird - ever looked at how much Zynga spams their game pages? I hope it has been a misunderstanding or alike, and that CA Staff can use the game FB page (or, if necessary, create a separate "CA Fans" page for purpose of communication) to announce and explain. Pages aren't well suited for discussion, but that's what this support forum is for.


Kori's thread earlier asking for suggestions was locked before I could say this, but this is so true. If FB has an issue with Castle Age posting a message every couple or days or less often they have a huge problem on their hands.

Not only Zynga, but sources like the Discovery channel often have the same issue for myself. I can't see that as a realistic problem. If they have server issues FB should remove all of the other junk they force on people.

Even if Kori doesn't see my post here I'm tossing my suggestions out regardless.
The common thread after reading that thread was communication and I agree completely. I have a few suggestions.
-If there is an issue address the player base as soon as possible. Post a message on the Castle Age front page and have a URL to the forums here for more information.
-Related to the previous suggestion a forum that is for the mods and devs to post in only to address current issues and what we can expect (i.e. something being unavaliable for a time etc).
-Announce when there is going to be a change in the game, an addition, or a subtraction from it. You don't have to tell us what it is or how to do it, but a teaser would be nice and could possibly get people excited.
-Last suggestion is a closed server to test things. This is self-explanitory. Do not roll out a feature if it is not going to work. Minor errors are to be expected with new things, but CoH was just a disaster.

That's it. As for the tomfoolery that went on with CoH; looking back it seems inevitable. It was introduced and in my opinion did not work. People tried to figure out how to get it to work and they did to an excess. Inviting people back to the game is fine, but most people who leave a game are going to block it unless they remove their whole army from their friends. Not realistic in most cases. Some people are always going to get into trouble and/or look to find ways to hack or exploit anything. Recent history if you keep up on current events should show that. I highly doubt that Castle Age has the security depth of Sony and look what happened to them.

Anyway, my two cents since Kori is lock happy this evening. :D

[pull lead]

It was a step in the right direction for sure. I'm pretty sure Kori meant to sticky it but just forgot.

[SDHawk]

Im sorry, but I do NOT agree with Kori locking that thread, and I do not think this conversation is over. You can't ask questions like that, and only have the conversation available when you are online. I knew that a lot of the people who had stuff to say were not here at the time. I would not appreciate someone unlocking my thread without a conversation about it beforehand, so I am going to leave Kori's thread alone. However, I will sticky this one, and it can be the OFFICIAL thread for any forum member to respond to the topic. but we will keep the conversation STRICTLY to this topic. I will be monitoring it as I can, and I will delete any post that goes astray. Kori can check it at her liesure.

EDIT: This does NOT mean start your post off with the word communication, then go into a rant about the exploit. This thread is for comment on what you think of the devs communication skills, or lack thereof.

[Proteuss]

you deleted my post what does that gain you ? just more of a bad reputation now listening to the players ????

[zserg]

you deleted my post what does that gain you ? just more of a bad reputation now listening to the players ????

you were probably off-topic.

edit: also discussing mod decisions in public is against forum rules(which you likely didn't bother to read). Next time send a PM if you're unhappy.

[SDHawk]

you deleted my post what does that gain you ? just more of a bad reputation now listening to the players ????

See my BRIGHT RED post :)

[lkendter]

#1 is put the communication in-game. Most people don't read the forums.

In addition, most people who play even one game feeds are flooded. You won't catch most of the CA announcements that way.

[SDHawk]

OK, the next post about the exploit in this thread results in me unstickying this thread, because i can only assume that no one really wants to discuss this topic. Sorry Elandal, I thought it was a good idea. i tried :)

[Elandal]

Thank you, SDHawk. I really wanted this topic to be about communications, but can't ask for everything :(

[rontti]

I would like to see that Castle Age starts using a proper email address, not @gmail one. @gmail does not look very professional in company's contact information.

[watchdog1964]

Firstly Elandal, you make some very relevant points. what I find unbelievable is that CA Devs continue to treat their players with such contempt. I have been a regular purchaser of FP but am considering not doing so anymore. the reasons for this? what other company could get away with treating their paying customers with such utter contempt and ignoring any issues they raise almost completely. I say almost and here I am being generous and allowing for the odd snippet of information we do get. personally I have contacted the Devs on at least 5 occasions via the FB help centre and never once have I received a reply. Most of the issues I have raised are still outstanding and as a paying customer I find this wholly unsatisfactory yet it seems there is nowhere and nobody I can turn to in order to redress these issues and get some basic customer service let alone good customer service. I love both CA and HOD but as a paying customer I feel undervalued, ignored and hard done by!!!

[hetejorn]

I am sure they listen to us. I am sure that the hero boosting another heroes ability was my idea. I personally thought that up for Mercedes since she uses someone else as a catalyst. Only they used the idea for someone else. They stole my way better idea to give that ability to some other hero. I actually don't agree with that. :mad:
But I am happy to say they listen to me at least. :p

[Aldo]

I have an opinion on this subject.
The one thing I could see them doing better is to put out an initial statement when something major happens to let people know they are looking into it and not waiting hours while they actually are. People don't know that behind the scenes there is due diligence taking place on their part.

If you recall I am the individual that had his account hacked via CATools due to coding in CA and Tools. To remind the Hacker spenthundreds of FP's I saved, things purchased that were worthless, properties sold, basically a mess of my character I've worked so hard to build. There was a lot of response on the boards between the Mods and the community. The Dev's did not talk to me until much later, the next day actually. However, I suspected they were investing behind the scenes to get things sorted which is exactly what happened. The next morning Kori contacted me and I had many conversations throughout the day with her. By that evening my account was restored.

I suspected the same thing was going on here and thought many of the community overreacted assuming nothing was being done. My assumption was correct and again the only thing that I could of seen done better was that initial statement saying "we are looking into this". It would of eased many peoples minds.

[Cerbykins]

I think what concerns a lot of people is that it's seemingly random who the devs address. I have a missing general and duplicate item, and reported it twice now - once through the report on forum link and once through FB (just in case the forum was the wrong channel). Someone else had a similar issue and it got fixed, albeit he didn't drag his feet like I did.

Guy A says "You don't listen". Guy B says "They listened to me." Guy A is now even MORE ticked and then you have the sort of unrest you see a lot of around here, "devs NEVER listen" - in spite of evidence to the contrary.

[unicorn36]

There may well be a need for the feature to be activated at the rate folk in my army are posting they are done with ca!.

Not sure what to think about any of this, but i can see their point of view very clearly.

[Tim Nyota]

I'm very glad to see this topic and that it is to be kept visible and very much on topic.

Yes, communication must be a priority. It is what can make or break any relationship, just like that of Dev and Player. It is not currently and never has been a priority in CA unfortunately. It is never too late to start.. The devs have got away with this to some extent due to a very loyal community here, which is loyal to itself if not the devs. However, even that can be weakened over time and is happening now to an extent.

If i consider starting a new game, the very first thing i do before playing is to look for and at any forum for the game. The vibe picked up from long time members and especially the visibility or lack thereof of developers interacting in a meaningful way with the community will largely determine if i consider playing the game regularly.

In addition to suggestions made already, i would suggest either (or both) a sub section of forum to be created in which only devs can post and do post weekly; and it is possible in this forum software to have a link which shows all developer posts, much like "recent posts". These will allow people to find and see such comments much more easily.

Cheesy abbreviation time.. i think in particular hearing about the 3 "B's" would be great and go a long way to restoring faith and loyalty:


Bugs, Broken things, and their fixes
Bannings
Balance of the game issues and amendments


Also some presence in the Suggestions forum would be encouraging. Not to BS people, but you have a great userbase here who are only too willing to help improve the game at no financial cost to you.

Similarly there are plenty of us who are aware of bugs and broken things, im sure we are willing to compile lists and present them here etc. However we would want to see responses to know it is worth our time doing so.

Don't neglect this opportunity to make a fresh start with your community of players Kori. You don't get unlimited chances to make your mark. Thank you for listening to us, we hope you do and we look forward to listening to you.

[zserg]

I've seen other games with a LOT more dev presence than this one (though the community itself didn't seem as loyal to itself as the one here).

How did they do it?

Well, first of all they had some people that from what I gathered read the forums for them, and then submitted the important stuff to the devs.

Like they had a suggestions forums, and each idea was read by one of these ...i forgot what they were called ..managers of some sort. And at the end the thread was marked as "submitted" and it meant devs were looking into it. End of the month they put up a thread with what suggestions had been used and even rewarded the OPs with in-game currency.

Or in the tech support, each thread got an reply (from the same people). And when one of the threads was about something that needed dev intervention again the "forum managers" sent those threads to the devs. There, every thread was marked as submitted/solved/replied etc. Some of the bugs were un-fixable, but still it really seemed as every user got an official response, and if his problem needed dev, well you could be sure a dev would look into it.


This is not the case here. I am not saying our devs don't look at the suggestions forum or at the tech support one. They do. But for someone that hasn't been on the forums for forever like me, it is not obvious that they actually use or suggestions or that they actually help people that post in tech support.

Right now, yeah Kori posts more and it is definitely an improvement, but it all seems very random, and it's like if you're lucky she might look over your thread, but likely she won't. That's how it feels.

[hetejorn]

On a serious level: Communication first of all has to do with the Customer sensitivity of the company. It's all about awareness. It means being aware of our desires, needs and changes in our preferences. Customer sensitivity leads to customer service. Service is ACTION ORIENTED.
A customer service is pro-active and does not wait for the customer to ask for something but rather anticipates the needs so it can react quickly.
The first action of Kori and consorts should be communicating clearly what can be expected.

[MarTooth]

Good communication is key to success of any business but computer programmers oft make lousy communicators, forum mods oft make excellent communicators so greater lines of communication between the devs and the mods would be beneficial to all as a quick word to the mods during this recent situation would have helped greatly allowing the mods to do their job far more effectively, keep the masses informed whilst still allowing the devs to focus on the priority of fixing the issues.

Giving one or more of the forum mods limited access to the game for the sole purpose of sending out an email in urgent cases such as this one may also be of benefit (assuming it is possible with your set up to allow access ONLY to the mass email system and not to anything else).

Assigning a forum mod or two two draft up summaries of concerns and ideas to forward to the devs on, say, a weekly basis would also be a good idea as I know how time consuming it can be to keep up with forums so it can be near impossible to continue to develop the site AND keep an eye on the forum at the same time.

[Tim Nyota]

Very well said guys. Ah yes, "Community Rep" i believe is the sort of role you are talking about Zerg. That could also be a good addition indeed.

What hetejorn said is excellent. Unfortunately to date it often can appear that Kori finds us troublesome and a hassle, a bit like annoying flies, that can be ignored until they begin to swarm too much and then a quick swat is thrown in their general direction.

That swat can seem like a bone thrown to some, with some people reacting as if a god had appeared to them, regardless of any substance or lack of actually resulting from the appearance.

Kori may not like hearing this, but it is how sections of the playerbase feel, I am not just making this up on my only singular thoughts. We are here in this thread not to disparage but to encourage an improvement that can benefit both Devs and Community. Because we still care. The tricky thing about caring is that it can lead to frustration and disappointment. Which is why many who did or would like to care, now have given up caring. Me, I will give it one more shot heh.

[Wollknäuel]

Ok, I will add a bit to this:

Communication is very, very important, so it's wise to spend significant resources on it. In fact, the browser game I am working on for years is only still alive because we devs appearantly care. People don't want fixes that badly, first they want some feedback and to be taken seriously. Even if the feedback is polite but negative ("sorry, we only have limited personnel and this feature would use up too much time for the gain") that's much, much better than no feedback at all.

Digging through endless forum threads with a lot of destructive, repetitive or meaningless postings is a pain. So devs should not do this at all, they should focus on creating content. Mods and other persons (paid / voluntary) can write summaries about suggestions, critics etc. - so devs can save a lot of precious time.

I also doubt it makes sense if devs appear in threads. Each time they do, dozens of players want to speak directly with them - but there is no time for this. It would be better if there would be persons in between (mods or paid / voluntary speakers) who face the community.

Finally, I'd like to see the Twitter messages back. Twitter is a great channel for short news, and it's not much effort to write them.

[FrankyL]

I appreciate you opening this up, SDHawk. The previous thread was only open for about 30 minutes, I think... I saw it after 45 :(

I agree with Kori... I don't want to be spoonfed the details about what's new. If you tell me there's a new monster that needs 246 points of divine stuff to break through and drops legendaries at a target level of 13 million damage, you've done me a dis-service.

Tease me. Tell me there's a new monster coming out that's harder than the ones before. Tell me there's a new land coming... or lay rumors of glittering treasures or powerful weapons. I don't need to have them all available for gaming right away... anticipation. It's making me wait...

You don't have to tell me a lot. But tell me.

[plague]

I have been playing CA for more than 2 years. This is the only online game that have captured my attention for so long. A few games I started along with CA lost interest for me. CA had something that caught my interest and even when it went down a bit, I still hanged around in the hope it will improve in the future. As you can see from my signature, I participated in all Arenas.

Now that we have the ear of the Devs, I want to have my say that can be heard.

1) Most have highlighted the need for detailed explanation of new features. Most of the time I end up coming to the forum and sort through so many threads to find the right one that explains what something does. A direct description from the developers will be much better.

2) You introduced a poll option for us to vote. But then it wasn't implemented on time and totally ignored. Personally I liked the option to vote. But the options shouldn't be on what the devs should focus fixing next. But what option people would want next (like the option of new quest in atlantis or new level for Generals).

3) Delay the releases for a few weeks and fix many of the issues in the current game. Plenty of fixes can be implemented easily. Just needs a little bit of time spent by the devs. The bugs have been reported by the forum users many times. There have been many threads about it. Maybe a mod can compile all of them into 1 post or something for quick look up for devs.

4) Read some of the suggestions that have been posted. There are some good ideas in my opinion. Maybe satisfying some of the requests that players have been making (like gift accepting/returning) would satisfy the players a lot. Because not only they will feel as if the devs are listening to them but satisfying their requests.

5) Weekly Q&A is already mentioned. You can get a good understanding of players' ideas by doing that and releasing new features or recurring feature like Arena that would suit the players. This would also bring in many of the players into forum interaction than only a set of people communicating often.

This is not complaining but giving feedback of what can be done that will improve the communication between the Devs and voicing some of the displeasures in the past that can be avoided.

This will give confidence in both the game and the devs and justify the spending of real money into FPs. Because I will not feel like I'm wasting money but be part of a game community where I enjoy the time I spend.

Hope no one misunderstands my purpose of this post. :) Just trying to be helpful.

PS: If you are indeed short of developers and need extra hands, you can find many here including me who are experienced in programming and can help if you want. I can do it part time.

[thomasj8]

Service is ACTION ORIENTED.
A customer service is pro-active and does not wait for the customer to ask for something but rather anticipates the needs so it can react quickly.
The first action of Kori and consorts should be communicating clearly what can be expected.

I think this is key, it ties into Aldo's problem when his account was hacked, and it ties into the recent blowup. I knew the devs were working on the hack because Pooh had been in contact with Kori. Other than that, it was vigilante communication with people posting in the forum, within their guilds and on their FB walls. IMO, the cheat escalated and ruined many FB friendships BECAUSE IT LACKED PROACTIVE DEV COMMUNICATION. If there had been a dev communication IN GAME AND IN THE FORUM, when this problem was FIRST DISCOVERED, the damage would have been decreased significantly. Instead people walked away from the game because the glitch grew like wildfire.

Kori, Tass, et al, this is not meant as bashing. Every time we have a defect at work (programming or regulatory filing) we do "lessons learned" to see how we can be a better company. Early on, we realized that quick resolution is top priority, only AFTER quick, appropriate communication. Our customer told that the lack of communication was the worst thing we could do, so we communicate at the same time that we are investigating the defect scope and identifying resolution. Good luck :)

[Guard23]

SD, Can I say "Exploit" and then talk about communication? :D

(I like flirting with infractions to lighten the mood, what can I say?)

Suggestion for this thread in general: Take SD Hawks Giant, Red, Bolded statements, and stick them in the OP, most people won't go to the second page before they post about communication (sort of ironic, huh?).

I will add support to the notions of "Community Reps" to help sift through the massive information posted here daily. They can look at every suggestion and tech support issue posted in a day and summarize, they can also declutter those areas by merging similar topics together and/or closing/deleting repetitive topics while bumping/redirecting to the original thread.

The idea of rewarding suggestions would be nice but it shouldn't be mandatory. Having one of my suggestions utilized in another game recently was rewarding enough to me.

When there is a major issue happening in CA (read that word in quotations at the top of this post) it is imperative that the developers start their own post to address the issue. It can be locked so hundreds of angry people don't berate every single word of the post, but it must be visible and concise. It needs to address the issue in a way that informs the player base of the issue, how it happened and what you have done or plan to do about it. posting a reply in a hot topic does no good to people. If I'm looking for information but have no desire to sift through 50+ pages of anger, trolling, random spam, and the tiniest shred of meaningful information, I will likely not even see it. So how exactly am I expected to know that you even know the issue exists?

I agree with what was stated about confirming that messages were received. While the report/contact link is great, there needs to be some sort of confirmation that the message was received. While this would just be an auto reply, possibly triggered when the message itself is opened, it would do a lot to add confidence.

Updating the "Known Issues" sticky would also be a good idea, I know the last time I checked TS for my missing Fighter Glove, the issue wasn't mentioned in the known issues section. Once again, the "assistants" can do this, I don't expect Kori or any other developer to constantly update all the issues the game has.

Let us know what's happening in the future, what are you working on now? This has already been mentioned, but even a teaser goes a long way to tell us that you care.

Explain new features. We need to know the who, what, when, where, why, and how of things that are released. Most people are not going to care how a new feature works if it's so complicated that they can't understand it right away. Only a small percentage are going to find out on their own and post it somewhere so others can read it. And only a slightly larger percentage of players will actually see it. And while that percentage may (or may not) pass it along to others, you'll be lucky if 30% of your player base ever truly understands a feature. the other 70% will either ignore it entirely (and if they ignore enough features, they'll run out of reasons to play your game) or it'll add fuel to their contempt for you (and they'll still probably leave).

As an aside, you seem to rely too heavily on people who spend the big Bucks on your game, as both an income source and as a means to spend $$$ on a new feature so that they can explain it to others. Stores that only sell expensive items usually don't do too well. You need to start appealing to casual spenders more.

The next three don't necessarily speak to communication, but I'll tie the to communication at the end. This is more about customer satisfaction which I think is connected to communication.

Fix old errors, especially if they resulted in the loss of limited items. There are a quite a few people, for example, who lost a limited general due to a glitch and never got them back. This does not instill confidence in a player and many have quit because these issues, while they may seem small, are very important to them, because that item will never be released again.

Work to correct all former exploits. Example: There are people who took advantage of a quest reset (that happened to only a percentage of the players) and they got a huge SP advantage because of it. Remove those extra SPs from the game and many people will be more confident in your ability to give a quality product.

Work to fix minor errors, grammar, coding etc. that don't necessarily hinder game play, but annoy people endlessly. You don't have to do it all at once but fix the grammar of one monster battle every week or month. this doesn't have to be a priority but doing something every once in awhile shows people that you care about quality. also prevent future errors of these kind. Kilgore, I noticed, is missing the word "to" near the end of his lore.

Log all fixes to the game. put a master, locked, sticky preferably in the News post. While this may make it look like your product is sloppy (and while it is, I'm sure you don't want everyone to know this fact right away.) people who are aware of these errors like evidence that you actually care to fix your product and their satisfaction will go up immeasurably.

There is an old saying in business: It's cheaper to retain a customer than it is to get a new one, and it's more difficult to get a former customer back than to bring a new one in. Personally, when I stop going to a business, it's for life. If I feel I can't trust a company's business practices, nothing is going to make me spend money there.

[RawrGiovanni]

Communication is key, i'm sure 90% of the people who abused the CoH's bug wouldn't of done it if they knew what it was really all about.

Also communication lets us know what is happening and what the focus is on the dev's side. Its very frustrating to see something new, don't see it anywhere and you have to start guessing what the intentions are of the update, what it does and other stuff. Now being vague on purpose about certain updates is okay, as long as we know about it and what it does/can do.

[Lok]

I also almost opened a thread like this, I was composing another post in the original thread when it was locked. I consider myself lucky to have been able to voice some of my opinions in it. We have always complained about the lack of communications and am glad to see there is actually an in-game announcement directing the players to the forum this morning.

[webdreams_castle]

I for one would love to be able to come here to see information from the devs on the new things they do to the game. I do not mean the posts they make now stating it was released, but something with a little more volume to it. Is it really to much to ask that when something new came out that you made a post stating what it was supposed to do, a little of what you have to do to accomplish it, and what you will get for it. If it did come from users suggestions, maybe a credit to us for it.

The news post would be a great spot for it and a closed thread is fine to, as long as it gave us something to work with. Then we as users could create and chat about it in the general forum about our experiences in it.

If that was the case, then I am sure more people would come here as to it'd be a lot easier for them to get a straight "right" answer. I know I would send more here if they did not have to read through a lot of rubbish to get that answer.

[SDHawk]

Ok, I will add a bit to this:

Communication is very, very important, so it's wise to spend significant resources on it. In fact, the browser game I am working on for years is only still alive because we devs appearantly care. People don't want fixes that badly, first they want some feedback and to be taken seriously. Even if the feedback is polite but negative ("sorry, we only have limited personnel and this feature would use up too much time for the gain") that's much, much better than no feedback at all.

Digging through endless forum threads with a lot of destructive, repetitive or meaningless postings is a pain. So devs should not do this at all, they should focus on creating content. Mods and other persons (paid / voluntary) can write summaries about suggestions, critics etc. - so devs can save a lot of precious time.

I also doubt it makes sense if devs appear in threads. Each time they do, dozens of players want to speak directly with them - but there is no time for this. It would be better if there would be persons in between (mods or paid / voluntary speakers) who face the community.

Finally, I'd like to see the Twitter messages back. Twitter is a great channel for short news, and it's not much effort to write them.
Thats good. From a mod standpoint, I know it was hard as hell to keep that big thread accurate and on target. We didnt have a target topic. We had no idea, and no information about any facet of it. Therefore, any one who wanted to come in and speculate could be allowed. Their opinions and conjectures, at that point were as valid as the next guy's because nobody knew anything. If Im not mistaken, Mursilis got posts from a group on facebook, with a link to the post buried in the thread, that allowed him to extract the dev statements and put them in their own thread. How's that for a kick in the seat of the pants?

[Punkle]

Im sorry, but I do NOT agree with Kori locking that thread, and I do not think this conversation is over. You can't ask questions like that, and only have the conversation available when you are online. I knew that a lot of the people who had stuff to say were not here at the time. I would not appreciate someone unlocking my thread without a conversation about it beforehand, so I am going to leave Kori's thread alone. However, I will sticky this one, and it can be the OFFICIAL thread for any forum member to respond to the topic. but we will keep the conversation STRICTLY to this topic. I will be monitoring it as I can, and I will delete any post that goes astray. Kori can check it at her leisure.

EDIT: This does NOT mean start your post off with the word communication, then go into a rant about the exploit. This thread is for comment on what you think of the devs communication skills, or lack thereof.

Thanks. A thread like this is needed :)

[Punkle]

The next three don't necessarily speak to communication, but I'll tie the to communication at the end. This is more about customer satisfaction which I think is connected to communication.

Fix old errors, especially if they resulted in the loss of limited items. There are a quite a few people, for example, who lost a limited general due to a glitch and never got them back. This does not instill confidence in a player and many have quit because these issues, while they may seem small, are very important to them, because that item will never be released again.

Work to correct all former exploits. Example: There are people who took advantage of a quest reset (that happened to only a percentage of the players) and they got a huge SP advantage because of it. Remove those extra SPs from the game and many people will be more confident in your ability to give a quality product.

Work to fix minor errors, grammar, coding etc. that don't necessarily hinder game play, but annoy people endlessly. You don't have to do it all at once but fix the grammar of one monster battle every week or month. this doesn't have to be a priority but doing something every once in awhile shows people that you care about quality. also prevent future errors of these kind. Kilgore, I noticed, is missing the word "to" near the end of his lore.

Log all fixes to the game. put a master, locked, sticky preferably in the News post. While this may make it look like your product is sloppy (and while it is, I'm sure you don't want everyone to know this fact right away.) people who are aware of these errors like evidence that you actually care to fix your product and their satisfaction will go up immeasurably.[/list]

There is an old saying in business: It's cheaper to retain a customer than it is to get a new one, and it's more difficult to get a former customer back than to bring a new one in. Personally, when I stop going to a business, it's for life. If I feel I can't trust a company's business practices, nothing is going to make me spend money there.
Good points. The last one about the fixed stuff, log is really good.
I dont think a log like that makes the game look "sloppy". All coded games/apps have bugs (well, except for the text editor i once coded in Assembler LOL) It does make it look like they are actually doing something about them ;)

[plague]

I guess many people posted while I had written mine and left it unposted. When I actually did, the 1 page post had become a 4 page post where many have highlighted most of my points. :)

Guess a lot of people are in the same position as I am.

[lkendter]

How about a support button built into the game.

The other 2 FB games I play by 2 different companies has a support button in-game. Would make it a LOT easier to know where to go.

[chowmein123]

How about a support button built into the game.

The other 2 FB games I play by 2 different companies has a support button in-game. Would make it a LOT easier to know where to go.

What do you mean by support button? You mean a help button that explains to you what this thing does?

[SDHawk]

sorry Michael, but I am strictly maintaining this thread. Same for you, yathink2. Since the devs put up a warning both here and in-game, that wasn't because of lack of communication, so you need to find a more appropriate spot for your complaint. Thanks :)

[Bristolen]

well from what i saw for past few days, people were interested in when the arena actually ended on 18th. i didnt see a dev post anywhere about it. it would have been a great start for devs to say days before in news box Arena 4 Ends August 18th at 8 PM PDT for x, y, and z reasons. lfc posted where devs posted on the CA wall about it. i never even knew they posted information there. :eek: and from what i can tell the post didnt exactly inform people ahead of time either by a day or two, especially for the casual players who dont log on every day.

main thing about communication is you have to be consistent with doing it at all, where you do it, and being prompt.

news box is too far down page for most people to notice it at all, especially if there is an update. and if people dont expect their newsbox to say anything that pertains to them, they wont be in habit of checking it or looking there.

but its a double edged sword. going from..."devs wont even read this thread" to "WHY HASNT A DEV POSTED HERE YET!!! WTF ARE THEY DOING!!!" and we have certainly seen that sword be flipped on both edges lately. :p darned if you communicate, darned if you dont ;)

[dragonlady67]

-If there is an issue address the player base as soon as possible. Post a message on the Castle Age front page and have a URL to the forums here for more information.

-Announce when there is going to be a change in the game, an addition, or a subtraction from it. You don't have to tell us what it is or how to do it, but a teaser would be nice and could possibly get people excited.


+1 beelyun!!

[SDHawk]

well from what i saw for past few days, people were interested in when the arena actually ended on 18th. i didnt see a dev post anywhere about it. it would have been a great start for devs to say days before in news box Arena 4 Ends August 18th at 8 PM PDT for x, y, and z reasons. lfc posted where devs posted on the CA wall about it. i never even knew they posted information there. :eek: and from what i can tell the post didnt exactly inform people ahead of time either by a day or two, especially for the casual players who dont log on every day.

main thing about communication is you have to be consistent with doing it at all, where you do it, and being prompt.

news box is too far down page for most people to notice it at all, especially if there is an update. and if people dont expect their newsbox to say anything that pertains to them, they wont be in habit of checking it or looking there.

but its a double edged sword. going from..."devs wont even read this thread" to "WHY HASNT A DEV POSTED HERE YET!!! WTF ARE THEY DOING!!!" and we have certainly seen that sword be flipped on both edges lately. darned if you communicate, darned if you dont

While I agree on the face of your argument, Im going to play dev-il's advocate :D here for a minute:

News box has been shuffled around here for a minute, and that had some to do with me not liking CoH in the first place. But the box IS there, just like the forum IS here. If peeps don't check these places, that is on them, not the devs. Reaching 100% of the playerbase is probably not realistic. You do have those who play very casually. The devs could find those peeps on fb, put a pm in their box, and STILL not reach them on time. If peeps want to play casually, that is their prerogative, but they are just going to have to understand that there is a lot of stuff they are going to miss out on.

The devs ARE free to make their own decisions as far as the game is concerned. As long as they post about it, somewhere, they have fulfilled their obligation. It is up to the peeps who want the information to seek it out.

Funny story: I wasn't aware of the 8PM cutoff. I joined the last couple battles, just to push myself further into hero territory. In the last battle, a guy said "Last Battle! Good luck!" I made a durr statement that there should be 2 more battles, as I expected it to end at 2AM my time. I was pointed to the 8PM statement by another player, and had to admit I was wrong. :p Once I saw that the information was actually there, I had to admit that the error was mine, as I know where to get it, I just didn't bother doing so.

Over the past few days, the devs have been pretty busy with other things. I am going to credit the 8 PM statement to Kori, or someone on the dev team reading up on the forum, seeing that peeps were interested in the actual time, and throwing it up there as soon as they could. :) Personally, I think that is pretty reasonable

[King Hrothbeort]

We tried having the mods as an interface between the devs and regular forum users for a while, as those of you who have been here for a long time will remember. That didn't work too well as many forum members didn't really believe that we mods were speaking for the devs.

(The results, which are what the devs and mods all agreed on about cheating are summed up here (http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?t=41179); I didn't notice until now that Kori updated this adding a couple new things on 8/8/11 and 8/10/11)

The devs have never given us mods insight into what might be coming in the future in the game. They occasionally let us know that they're working on fixing something, but more often the rest of you know as soon as we do and we're all frustrated with being in the dark.

[lkendter]

What do you mean by support button? You mean a help button that explains to you what this thing does?
A support button takes you directly to the spot you need to go to report issues with the game. It is a contact developers type of button, but it is much more visible.

"Report/Contact this App" is buried at the button of the page AND outside of the CA frame.

I would change from this
Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats to
Contact support | Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats

People clearly know where to go.

[hetejorn]

A support button takes you directly to the spot you need to go to report issues with the game. It is a contact developers type of button, but it is much more visible.

"Report/Contact this App" is buried at the button of the page AND outside of the CA frame.

I would change from this
Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats to
Contact support | Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats

People clearly know where to go.

And make that help/FAQ go to the Threads here instead of to the completely useles Help/(not so)FAQ. This would also create another line to the forums...

Meaning specifically this one: http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=13807

[Dragonwing]

Indeed... locking a request/message regarding communication issues flies in the face of the very issues it sets out to resolve.>snip<. I snipped this out because that is the way threads go off track. Someone is going to single out that part of your post to respond to, and the thread gets derailed. There are other places for you to post that part. Thanks :).

With regard to communication again... there have been pages of requests to fix the timers. There have been pages of requests to revisit the length of Guild Battles. There have been countless suggestions that address almost all areas of game play and while the suggestions keep coming in, there are virtually NO responses to them on the part of the Developers. This is what we're talking about. It is very easy to feel or perceive that your suggestion has been ignored when there is never a response. Not even an acknowledgement of receipt of the suggestion has been given. Then to lock out a thread... really?! You must be able to see why we have some concerns about how well our feedback is received.

[rodpud]

We tried having the mods as an interface between the devs and regular forum users for a while, as those of you who have been here for a long time will remember. That didn't work too well as many forum members didn't really believe that we mods were speaking for the devs.

(The results, which are what the devs and mods all agreed on about cheating are summed up here (http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?t=41179); I didn't notice until now that Kori updated this adding a couple new things on 8/8/11 and 8/10/11)

The devs have never given us mods insight into what might be coming in the future in the game. They occasionally let us know that they're working on fixing something, but more often the rest of you know as soon as we do and we're all frustrated with being in the dark.



thank you for your honesty king... i always wondered and even reading u say that now is still hard to believe :P

[Elisabeth9]

If peeps want to play casually, that is their prerogative, but they are just going to have to understand that there is a lot of stuff they are going to miss out on.

The devs ARE free to make their own decisions as far as the game is concerned. As long as they post about it, somewhere, they have fulfilled their obligation. It is up to the peeps who want the information to seek it out.


I have played in games where dev's post new information in a banner that comes up when I load the game. Other games have a permanent field at the top of the game window that I can always check out for new information or features. Seems easy enough if you want to keep your player base informed. They should be seeking out their customers in any way possible. I have never really understood the CA business model in regards to this. Why wouldn't you interact with your customers as much as possible? Why wouldn't you keep them informed? Why wouldn't you explain new features, etc? Seems win-win to me.

[Elisabeth9]

I don't know the people involved in the business that is CA, but maybe they need to rely more on a non-IT person to handle comminication w/ their customers, really take that end of things seriously. Word of good developer-player comminication tends to get around FB. It is the number one thing CA players say to me when they try to recruit me to other games, "You wouldn't believe the communication w/ developers!".

[watchdog1964]

[QUOTE=Elisabeth9;2289615]I don't know the people involved in the business that is CA, but maybe they need to rely more on a non-IT person to handle comminication w/ their customers, really take that end of things seriously.

EXACTLY Elisabeth. The Devs need to realise that many of us who purchase FP ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS!! and like any business transaction, when something is wrong or not to my satisfaction I expect to be able to COMMUNICATE with somebody, to air my problem and DISCUSS it - not just be ignored like they are happy to take my money but my satisfaction with their product (or not) counts for nothing. I heard from the DEVS side once and he explained that they are a small outfit with not much time for such things. well Im sorry Devs but you REALLY MUST find time or employ somebody whose sole job is communicating with your clients, fee paying or otherwise. disgruntled customers do tend to go elsewhere. for my part I will never purchase another Favor Point until someone starts to listen to the problems I want addressed.

[SDHawk]

OK, seems this topic has pretty much run its course. I wont close it, it can stay open for any one who hasn't given their opinion. Im pretty sure Kori has read what has been posted so far, and the sticky list is pretty long. I will unsticky it now and let it fall where it may :)

[Wollknäuel]

I would change from this
Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats to
Contact support | Help/FAQ | Forum | Privacy Policy | My Army (###) | My Stats

People clearly know where to go.

Umm, please not. Players often assume a "bug" if something doesn't work like they expect, and an easy way to report would result in a bazillion messages, taking away precious time from serious bug reports. Even if they do report real problems, it might be a simple repetition of already sent reports. And with an easy way there will be countless repetitions...

Back to dev communication in general: At the moment we get updates in high frequency, I like that. :)

[firemandon]

Umm, please not. Players often assume a "bug" if something doesn't work like they expect, and an easy way to report would result in a bazillion messages, taking away precious time from serious bug reports. Even if they do report real problems, it might be a simple repetition of already sent reports. And with an easy way there will be countless repetitions...

Back to dev communication in general: At the moment we get updates in high frequency, I like that. :)

Actually I agree that there does need to be an easy way to contact the developers, you know a lot more people might have reported the exploit link if only they knew where, and how to do it. Again, not everyone is going to run to the forums every time they see a problem in game, and not everyone will know that they can contact the devs. from the facebook page either. Just Saying

[FrankyL]

There's another game I play where the devs actually offer bounties to those who report game issues... from things as minor as spelling/grammar to things as major as hacks and cheats. Worth considering....

[Bristolen]

i think the devs still have a ways to go before they get trusted to handle issues or communicate. how many people come here saying, "devs never took care of my issues or replied back to me, rant rant rant"?

old actions and behavior predicts future behavior to these people. and a lot of these people wouldnt ever trusted devs turned over a new leaf anyway when it comes to communication and response. ::shrugs::

[Mursilis]

Actually I agree that there does need to be an easy way to contact the developers, you know a lot more people might have reported the exploit link if only they knew where, and how to do it. Again, not everyone is going to run to the forums every time they see a problem in game, and not everyone will know that they can contact the devs. from the facebook page either. Just Saying

There is. Use either the Contact Us option on these forums or the Report option in the game. Both go right to the developers. I really can't think of an easier way than either of these.

[Elandal]

There is. Use either the Contact Us option on these forums or the Report option in the game. Both go right to the developers. I really can't think of an easier way than either of these.

The Report option provided by Facebook isn't obvious, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message. Forum is too trolly, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message.

I'd still settle on either if there was a confirmation that the devs actually got the message, but they're still not "simple, easy" ways.

Best would be to have a support contact form linked in the CA header where Forum link is. "Contact Support" is clearer, and being part of the game it would get keep link (FBID) and whtaever is relevant directly from game/FB. It should of course have a nice "Thank you for contacting support, we will respond within a few days" page, and automated email with the information in support request sent to the player.

That kind of support form with automatic response is common because it's simple, easy to use, and easily ties to whatever issue tracker backend the company uses.

[Kuko]

The Report option provided by Facebook isn't obvious, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message. Forum is too trolly, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message.

I'd still settle on either if there was a confirmation that the devs actually got the message, but they're still not "simple, easy" ways.

Best would be to have a support contact form linked in the CA header where Forum link is. "Contact Support" is clearer, and being part of the game it would get keep link (FBID) and whtaever is relevant directly from game/FB. It should of course have a nice "Thank you for contacting support, we will respond within a few days" page, and automated email with the information in support request sent to the player.

That kind of support form with automatic response is common because it's simple, easy to use, and easily ties to whatever issue tracker backend the company uses.

and as you said in other post, every time you contact devs there should be support ticket issued, also mods should have access to status of every ticket, I have open issues for a year now, never heard back, not that I care anymore ...

[firemandon]

The Report option provided by Facebook isn't obvious, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message. Forum is too trolly, and there's no confirmation that the devs actually got the message.

I'd still settle on either if there was a confirmation that the devs actually got the message, but they're still not "simple, easy" ways.

Best would be to have a support contact form linked in the CA header where Forum link is. "Contact Support" is clearer, and being part of the game it would get keep link (FBID) and whtaever is relevant directly from game/FB. It should of course have a nice "Thank you for contacting support, we will respond within a few days" page, and automated email with the information in support request sent to the player.

That kind of support form with automatic response is common because it's simple, easy to use, and easily ties to whatever issue tracker backend the company uses.

See that's a very valid point, as goofy as a lot of Zynga's games are, there is a clear support link for their games, and when you contact them you get an automated email letting you know that they have received your support request, with a ticket number so that you can track it, granted 9 times out of 10 you wont hear back from them either after that, but at least you know they got your message and are aware of your concerns.

[bigtymer]

I don't know the people involved in the business that is CA, but maybe they need to rely more on a non-IT person to handle comminication w/ their customers, really take that end of things seriously. Word of good developer-player comminication tends to get around FB. It is the number one thing CA players say to me when they try to recruit me to other games, "You wouldn't believe the communication w/ developers!".

I completely agree with this. I think having someone on staff who's specific field is communication and public relations is the only way communication is going to change as they would understand the importance of it and have the knowledge of how to implement changes that would improve communication.
The fact that the devs had to ask us how to improve communication and then locked the thread after only a few people responded is a perfect indication of their lack of communication qualifications. Having someone QUALIFIED to deal with relations with your customers will have a direct correlation with keeping your customers happy. Keeping your customers happy equals more customers, which would result in more money generated. This would far out way the salary expenses to hire such a person.

[hetejorn]

Umm, please not. Players often assume a "bug" if something doesn't work like they expect, and an easy way to report would result in a bazillion messages, taking away precious time from serious bug reports. Even if they do report real problems, it might be a simple repetition of already sent reports. And with an easy way there will be countless repetitions...

Back to dev communication in general: At the moment we get updates in high frequency, I like that. :)

When the devs communicate a bug has been reported, that should slow down the reports. Have also been in a game where bugs were listed, and you could actually see what peeps were working on, being "In process". After a while it would say "Solved".

[Cerbykins]

Considering I just got another of these (and reported it), now seems as good a time to mention this as any, and a fitting place to put it.

It might be worth bothering to tell players if these 'free refills' that happen after outages are intentional or not. There are games out there that actually reward players after outages for their patience, but CA being what it is the devs frequently take action and don't bother to tell anyone about it before or after.

Inform the community if these refills are intentional/sanctioned or not - and what, if anything they should do about it. You have people believing they're 'owed' these refills, and it's stuff like this that led to the Kilgore fiasco.

[Wollknäuel]

I stumbled over this posting part in the middle of the Atlantis II thread and it could be an important and valid point:

It's becoming more and more obvious that the most prominent players/guilds actually don't represent what the majority thinks. Someone already pointed out the Thanatos thing, which was hated by the forum/some very prominet players, yet now it seems to be the monster that gets summoned the most.

You also have festival duels, which were released to the acclaim of the forums, yet the general public widely ignored it and it keeps ignoring it.


With all that in mind, do the devs really get the info what the majority of players want?

So, what about alternative ways to get players' opinions? Polls in Facebook don't make much effort and there is usually great participation...

[zserg]

crusader polls should be more unbiased :o

[Matezma]

crusader polls should be more unbiased :o

Is that still around? I don't see it. :confused: