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Rutherford
06-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Intro

Recently, I've been put out by all the claims about Power Leveling / PVP Leveling and the lack of even anecdotal evidence in any of the discussion. It seems rare that we see somebody who has spent months on either path speak up, and I almost never see any numbers attached. It's particularly disturbing because we know about how fast a build levels and gains stat points. So, I've been playing around with the leveling speed math to come up with some assumptions from which to show some quantitative difference.

I'd like your help challenging my assumptions in order to refine my algorithm. This is just a model based on averages. The variation of that model from the actual game will result in errors. I suspect it's a pretty big error rate right now.

Math

Needed XP for each level = (Level * 12.5) + 6.25

Hours to Level = ((NeededXP - RefillStaminaXP - RefillEnergyXP) / (PerHourStaminaXP + PerHourEnergyXP))

Energy Spent to Level = RefillEnergyXP + (HoursToLevel * ENERGY_REFILL_PER_HOUR)

Questing Stat sGained = EnergySpent / STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY

Demi Stats Gained = HoursToLevel / 24

Given

STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY = 244.527
STAMINA_XP_RETURN_RATE = 2.2
ENERGY_XP_RETURN_RATE = 1.4

Starting Stats: Lvl 20, E 80, S 40, A 1, D 1

Buy Order: All Energy first, then all stamina, finally Battle Points

Results

Level_Value = 271
E_Value = 96
S_Value = 96
A_Value = 1004
D_Value = 1004
XP_Value = 459098
Days: 358
BSI: 7.41
LSI: 1.06
Combined: 8.47

Level_Value = 278
E_Value = 120
S_Value = 120
A_Value = 1001
D_Value = 1001
XP_Value = 483117
Days: 360
BSI: 7.2
LSI: 1.29
Combined: 8.5

Level_Value = 303
E_Value = 200
S_Value = 200
A_Value = 1007
D_Value = 1006
XP_Value = 573898
Days: 372
BSI: 6.64
LSI: 1.98
Combined: 8.62

Level_Value = 331
E_Value = 300
S_Value = 300
A_Value = 1006
D_Value = 1005
XP_Value = 684848
Days: 381
BSI: 6.08
LSI: 2.72
Combined: 8.79

Level_Value = 403
E_Value = 500
S_Value = 500
A_Value = 1003
D_Value = 1003
XP_Value = 1015148
Days: 451
BSI: 4.98
LSI: 3.72
Combined: 8.7

Level_Value = 518
E_Value = 750
S_Value = 750
A_Value = 1003
D_Value = 1002
XP_Value = 1677117
Days: 628
BSI: 3.87
LSI: 4.34
Combined: 8.21

Level_Value = 631
E_Value = 1000
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1004
D_Value = 1004
XP_Value = 2488598
Days: 814
BSI: 3.18
LSI: 4.75
Combined: 7.94

Level_Value = 782
E_Value = 2000
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1003
D_Value = 1003
XP_Value = 3822117
Days: 1054
BSI: 2.57
LSI: 5.12
Combined: 7.68


Issues / Remarks

Stat Point Return Rate from Energy: This is based on the average return rate for all quests that have a full set of subquests. Atlantis, the stat point for unlocking each summoning orb, etc. are not included in this average. I set the cap at 973 stat points from questing.

XP Return Rates: numbers just pulled from another source, probably not close in a long term average.

Stat Points from Other Sources: Completely ignored at this point.

Finally, the disclamer. Don't attempt to stop blade with your hand or genitals. If you have Energy or Stamina, go spend it. Playing the game is better than talking about the game. ;)

Rutherford
06-07-2010, 07:50 PM
BTW - The numbers to 2000 / 2000 are interesting. Even if there's an error, I believe it's a matter of scale at that point. The winners / losers will be locked in.

Level_Value = 443
E_Value = 96
S_Value = 96
A_Value = 2003
D_Value = 2003
XP_Value = 1226648
Days: 1041
BSI: 9.04
LSI: .65
Combined: 9.69

Level_Value = 969
E_Value = 2000
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 2007
D_Value = 2006
XP_Value = 5868598
Days: 2126
BSI: 4.14
LSI: 4.13
Combined: 8.27

* higher level player needs to have huge FP returns to catch up.

Dr Devious
06-07-2010, 08:10 PM
Intro

Recently, I've been put out by all the claims about Power Leveling / PVP Leveling and the lack of even anecdotal evidence in any of the discussion. It seems rare that we see somebody who has spent months on either path speak up, and I almost never see any numbers attached. It's particularly disturbing because we know about how fast a build levels and gains stat points. So, I've been playing around with the leveling speed math to come up with some assumptions from which to show some quantitative difference.

I'd like your help challenging my assumptions in order to refine my algorithm. This is just a model based on averages. The variation of that model from the actual game will result in errors. I suspect it's a pretty big error rate right now.

Math

Needed XP for each level = (Level * 12.5) + 6.25

Hours to Level = ((NeededXP - RefillStaminaXP - RefillEnergyXP) / (PerHourStaminaXP + PerHourEnergyXP))

Energy Spent to Level = RefillEnergyXP + (HoursToLevel * ENERGY_REFILL_PER_HOUR)

Questing Stat sGained = EnergySpent / STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY

Demi Stats Gained = HoursToLevel / 24

Given

STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY = 258.3601449
STAMINA_XP_RETURN_RATE = 2.2
ENERGY_XP_RETURN_RATE = 1.4

Starting Stats: Lvl 20, E 80, S 40, A 1, D 1

Buy Order: All Energy first, then all stamina, finally Battle Points

Results

Level: 278
Energy: 96
Stamina: 96
Attack: 1002
Defense: 1002
Days: 385

Level: 284
Energy: 120
Stamina: 120
Attack: 1005
Defense: 1005
Days: 384

Level: 302
Energy: 200
Stamina: 200
Attack: 1006
Defense: 1006
Days: 379

Level: 323
Energy: 300
Stamina: 300
Attack: 1005
Defense: 1004
Days: 368

Level: 363
Energy: 500
Stamina: 500
Attack: 1006
Defense: 1005
Days: 341

Level: 449
Energy: 750
Stamina: 750
Attack: 1004
Defense: 1004
Days: 397

Level: 537
Energy: 1000
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 1002
Defense: 1001
Days: 453

Level: 699
Energy: 2000
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 1004
Defense: 1004
Days: 641

Issues / Remarks

Stat Point Return Rate from Energy: This is based on the average return rate for all quests that have a full set of subquests. Atlantis, the stat point for unlocking each summoning orb, etc. are not included in this average. I set the cap at 967 stat points from questing.

XP Return Rates: numbers just pulled from another source, probably not close in a long term average.

Stat Points from Other Sources: Completely ignored at this point.

Finally, the disclamer. Don't attempt to stop blade with your hand or genitals. If you have Energy or Stamina, go spend it. Playing the game is better than talking about the game. ;)


you can't work it out like that I've be playing 60 odd days level 365 and i would be lot higher if i did all energy first,

Rutherford
06-07-2010, 08:16 PM
you can't work it out like that I've be playing 60 odd days level 365 and i would be lot higher if i did all energy first,

Leveling speed doesn't slow down until you start putting points into attack and defense. What else is new?

The bad model, which is admittedly bad, says this is possible:

Level_Value = 398
E_Value = 1000
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 103
D_Value = 103
XP_Value = 990117
Days: 178
BSI: .52
LSI: 7.54
Combined: 8.06

MichaelSeth
06-07-2010, 08:45 PM
This looks like a reasonable enough model to start off with. One possible
modification might be to have STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY increase
as Questing Stat sGained increases to reflect the fact that people
generally do the cheaper quests first. I'm sure there could be arguments
about how good your energy and stamina XP return rates are but you could
just guess a range of reasonable values and run the simulations at
either extreme and in the middle to get an idea of how large the variation is.

You state that you are trying to simulate PVP and power leveler builds.

Looking at your results, are you saying that, if you first get to Stamina X and energy Y and then head off to Attack 1000 and defence 1000, this is how long it will take? That would make sense I guess. Is there some point where the power leveler gets to a certain attack+defence before the 96/96 guy?
From the two points you give (1000/1000 and 2000/2000) it looks as
though the slow leveler is actually getting further and further ahead.

Dr Devious
06-07-2010, 08:46 PM
Leveling speed doesn't slow down until you start putting points into attack and defense. What else is new?

The bad model, which is admittedly bad, says this is possible:

Level: 269
Energy: 1000
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 103
Defense: 103
Days: 29

but have you took in to account doing 20/35 quest over and over? if i use an energy refill it's a lot more then i need to level at the moment so i stock up potions form demi quest then just before i level i use new gen to do 3 times 40 energy on a monster, this give at lest 120xp off the next level that along with 40 potions will take a big chuck off my next level. so one refill gets me almost 2 levels, i can farm 5 fp a level so work that out,

EpiQC
06-07-2010, 09:07 PM
How many days to 1000/1000 with 2000 energy/120 stamina? Also, does this account for FP refills with FP farming (not CC)?

Dr Devious
06-07-2010, 09:36 PM
How many days to 1000/1000 with 2000 energy/120 stamina? Also, does this account for FP refills with FP farming (not CC)?

i got 300 without cc then treated myself to 300 to celebrate, I've still got loads 65 levels later, i wasted some just to give my self a rest from farming fp,

Rutherford
06-07-2010, 11:37 PM
How many days to 1000/1000 with 2000 energy/120 stamina? Also, does this account for FP refills with FP farming (not CC)?

I'll start this one with the disclaimer, since it sounds like a build advice question. The term Days in the examples are really Pretend Days. When I get the averages close, the model is always still going to be off. Hopefully, the margin will be within my tolerance for extra work.

Level_Value = 532
E_Value = 2000
S_Value = 120
A_Value = 1001
D_Value = 1001
XP_Value = 1768992
Days: 540
BSI: 3.76
LSI: 4.21
Combined: 7.97

This one runs fastest (with these WRONG averages) at about here:

Level_Value = 305
E_Value = 610
S_Value = 120
A_Value = 1001
D_Value = 1001
XP_Value = 581498
Days: 296
BSI: 6.56
LSI: 2.79
Combined: 9.35


but have you took in to account doing 20/35 quest over and over? if i use an energy refill it's a lot more then i need to level at the moment so i stock up potions form demi quest then just before i level i use new gen to do 3 times 40 energy on a monster, this give at lest 120xp off the next level that along with 40 potions will take a big chuck off my next level. so one refill gets me almost 2 levels, i can farm 5 fp a level so work that out,

No. I do think the questing needs to be a little more flexible, if I'm going to ever use this tool for calculations of smaller increments - like trying to figure out the shortest path to add 500 Battle Stat points to your current build.

I'm trying for a middle ground between what I've got now and having a complete set of quests / monsters and XP return rates. There's an excel sheet around that has that info in it anyways.


This looks like a reasonable enough model to start off with. One possible
modification might be to have STAT_POINTS_PER_ENERGY increase
as Questing Stat sGained increases to reflect the fact that people
generally do the cheaper quests first. I'm sure there could be arguments
about how good your energy and stamina XP return rates are but you could
just guess a range of reasonable values and run the simulations at
either extreme and in the middle to get an idea of how large the variation is.

You state that you are trying to simulate PVP and power leveler builds.

Looking at your results, are you saying that, if you first get to Stamina X and energy Y and then head off to Attack 1000 and defence 1000, this is how long it will take? That would make sense I guess. Is there some point where the power leveler gets to a certain attack+defence before the 96/96 guy?
From the two points you give (1000/1000 and 2000/2000) it looks as
though the slow leveler is actually getting further and further ahead.

I do buy in the order Energy -> Stamina -> Battle Points. I may swap the order post-quest completion.

And yes, there are definitely points where it's faster. I haven't quite gotten to the "optimization" part of the thread. I really want to see how changing the averages moves those "sweet spots" before getting into any conclusions or applications.

But, in the first pass on my tool I have a number of optimization options. The two I like best so far are Fastest-Time and Most Points within X Days of the fastest time.

I definitely do like your sliding Energy Return Rate idea. I may play with that a bit. In the meantime, I was offered this correction:

973 Stat Points from Questing
And 244.527 Energy per Stat Point

EpiQC
06-08-2010, 12:16 AM
I'll start this one with the disclaimer, since it sounds like a build advice question. The term Days in the examples are really Pretend Days. When I get the averages close, the model is always still going to be off. Hopefully, the margin will be within my tolerance for extra work.

Level: 524
Energy: 2000
Stamina: 120
Attack: 1004
Defense: 1003
Days: 477
Does your formula work with exp average switches? For example, when I'm done questing, I'll start doing the 35/20 or farming serpents instead. Also, does your formula account for FP refills?

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 12:28 AM
Does your formula work with exp average switches? For example, when I'm done questing, I'll start doing the 35/20 or farming serpents instead. Also, does your formula account for FP refills?

I'll probably eventually make XP return rates inputs that you can select like Shyft's excellent excel sheet.

It doesn't include FP refills, don't know if I'll get there.

It also doesn't include things like waiting for your Energy to refill so you can complete that quest one more time and level up. Or the fact that most Stamina is spent in 5s, 10s, 20s, 50s . . . unless you PVP the odd points. And I have no provision for spending Energy on monsters. Yet. :D

EpiQC
06-08-2010, 01:04 AM
Ah ok. This is still good information, but unfortunately of no use for me because I built my character in order to focus on FP farming for refills. Without this peace of information, the variables would be way off. Thanks anyway for your answers.

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 01:10 AM
Ah ok. This is still good information, but unfortunately of no use for me because I built my character in order to focus on FP farming for refills. Without this peace of information, the variables would be way off. Thanks anyway for your answers.

And you're going Energy? An interesting strategy. I would love to hear how it works out for you.

Draconus
06-08-2010, 03:26 AM
That's an awful lot of work done. When I consider my often extremely limited online time, I think I'll stick with my slow road to advancement. At level 156 I've nearly completed 4 of the 5 Demi gift lists while finding that many of those at or above level 200 have yet to complete 1.

And for the wondering, do the equations account for points gained from Demi Blessings? And if so, what order were they taken in, as well as were they rotated or was one demi completed before starting the next?

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 03:51 AM
And for the wondering, do the equations account for points gained from Demi Blessings? And if so, what order were they taken in, as well as were they rotated or was one demi completed before starting the next?

They do, and they don't. I give 1 point per day. I don't unlock quests . . . yet.

And, I'm a Hybrid, with all but Aurora completed. I'm far diverged from any of the extreme builds. And I usually wait to have at least 100 stamina saved up so I can hit hard. My build advice thread is still a work in progress. :D

icollyer
06-08-2010, 06:01 AM
A lot of the high energy or high stamina builds are designed to level fast by farming FPs.

If you ignore refills you're missing the point of those builds.

I have a high attack/stamina build and I get about one "free" refill per level from farmed FPs when I'm targeting serpents. That more than doubles my leveling speed.

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 01:19 PM
A lot of the high energy or high stamina builds are designed to level fast by farming FPs.



You've completely missed the point of the thread. If somebody who actually uses this method wants to give even anecdotal evidence, I'd love to hear it!

But on the data side, this seems like a popular topic so let me explain some of the applications:

In the Hours to level equation, you can multiply your RefillStaminaXP or your RefillEnergyXP by the amount of refills you'll buy plus 1 to account for the refills purchased plus the level up refill.

OR, you could even solve the equation for RefillsNeeded and it would tell you how many refills would lower your Hours To Level by whatever amount you wanted for some Refill planning optimization.

OR, you could keep track of Favor Point Return Rates for Energy and Stamina and come up with a model that assumes a perfect supply of necessary monsters.


If you give me an assumed Favor Point Return Rate, I'll even do the work for you. I'm definitely willing to put up. Anybody else?

Pokpokkeh
06-08-2010, 01:52 PM
Level: 537
Energy: 1000
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 1002
Defense: 1001
Days: 453

Level: 278
Energy: 96
Stamina: 96
Attack: 1002
Defense: 1002
Days: 385

wow, just compare this two, 70 days difference and so much difference in stamina and energy, (and their PVP capabilities are same!.) And i believe the 1000/1000 build can also farm more fps, complete more quest and kill more monsters. more fun.

Patrick D
06-08-2010, 02:01 PM
If you give me an assumed Favor Point Return Rate, I'll even do the work for you. I'm definitely willing to put up. Anybody else?

6 FP per 1000 stamina for farming dragons is a well known figure based on sound empirical data. It is also independant of your attack/defense stats. Serpents can give better FP returns but let's use this number first. I think the outcome might surprise you and others.

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 02:10 PM
6 FP per 1000 stamina for farming dragons is a well known figure based on sound empirical data. It is also independant of your attack/defense stats. Serpents can give better FP returns but let's use this number first. I think the outcome might surprise you and others.

Dragon Experience rate is also well known. Give me some time to make the modifications. Got some favorite builds you want me to run, or do you want it to optimized for speed or max stat points, etc?

I can also start at the beginning, or with a current set of stats. Oh, I'll just be exhaustive about it.

Patrick D
06-08-2010, 02:33 PM
Dragon Experience rate is also well known. Give me some time to make the modifications. Got some favorite builds you want me to run, or do you want it to optimized for speed or max stat points, etc?

Personally, I would like to know the optimal amount of energy to go with 1000 stamina to reach 2000 and 4000 total in att/def. And I am also curious to compare a 2000/1000 build with a 1000/1000, a 500/1000, and a 120/1000 build. I'm guessing the outcome will favor low energy builds, but to get a complete picture you also need to factor in FP returns for energy after all quests are done. This is a bit more complicated though, because attack/defense values influence FP returns for energy monsters like serpents.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 03:25 PM
A lot of the high energy or high stamina builds are designed to level fast by farming FPs.

If you ignore refills you're missing the point of those builds.

I have a high attack/stamina build and I get about one "free" refill per level from farmed FPs when I'm targeting serpents. That more than doubles my leveling speed.

Yes, I agree. But Rutherford wants numbers. I've read in other threads that it takes about 50 Stamina (10 power attacks) to get a demi point from a Dragon. For each Demi-Point, you have a 20% chance of getting a favor point. So with 1,000 Stamina, you'll get about 20 demi points. That's about 4 Favor Points/1,000 Stamina. Based on that math, you'd have to invest 2,500 stamina to get 10 Favor Points.

But that is a conservative estimate. Others have claimed higher rates of return.

Without being able to look at the PHP code underlying the game, I'm not sure if any of these numbers can be verified. And I really don't have that kind of time on my hands.

Serpents are another matter entirely. Being that you could, hypothetically, pump both stamina and energy entirely into a serpent, you might get more bang for your buck. Especially after you start investing in Defense.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 03:36 PM
I think the reason most people don't back up their power leveling claims with some hard facts is because there are so many variables to consider. For instance, will I micro-manage my account to ensure no energy/stamina is wasted? (Impossible?) Will I attack exclusively dragons? (Probably not). Will I always invest skill points according to plan? (Nope). Will I always use my Demi bonuses the moment they're available? (No).

So, I think its possible to discuss best case scenarios. But the reality is there's a large range in the middle where most of us fall. Even if you are a trust fund baby and don't have to work, you have to go boating once in a while. And then there's the rest of us with jobs, families, and other hobbies.

One thing to remember, despite the math, is that once all of your achievements and quests are completed, skill points come only from leveling. So, it follows that those who attain levels quicker than others will, eventually, surpass those who don't.

I would like to see the difference between someone who brings Energy and Stamina to 120 each and then invests in Attack/Defense, and someone who invest in Energy and Stamina to 300 each, and then in Attack/Defense. Then, 500.

Patrick D
06-08-2010, 03:37 PM
I've read in other threads that it takes about 50 Stamina (10 power attacks) to get a demi point from a Dragon. For each Demi-Point, you have a 20% chance of getting a favor point. So with 1,000 Stamina, you'll get about 20 demi points. That's about 4 Favor Points/1,000 Stamina. Based on that math, you'd have to invest 2,500 stamina to get 10 Favor Points.

Not quite right, there's a 20% chance of getting either 1 or 2 favor points from a demi point slot, which is 50/50 so on average you'll get 1,5 FP there. With these numbers you get 6 FP/1000 stamina which is exactly what our real data shows. This number has been verified by many others from several groups so it can pretty much be considered as a fact now. :)

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 03:39 PM
But, again with the Disclaimer . . . optimal Energy and Days Spent is going to be based on the current model not the game. [Jedi handwave] This is not the build advice thread you're looking for. [/Jedi handwave]

Given:
ENERGY_PER_STAT_POINT = 244.527
STAT_POINTS_FROM_ENERGY_CAP = 973
ENERGY_REFILL_PER_HOUR = 12
STAMINA_REFILL_PER_HOUR = 12
STAMINA_XP_RETURN_RATE = 2.8
ENERGY_XP_RETURN_RATE = 1.4
STAMINA_FP_RETURN_RATE = 0.006

And Assuming: Always Dragons Available, No Waiting For Loot, Always Playing, No Quest Unlocking, etc.

Optimal Energy to 2000 battle stats:

Level_Value = 587
E_Value = 370
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1003
D_Value = 1002
XP_Value = 2153648
Days: 403
BSI: 3.42
LSI: 4.04
Combined: 7.45

Optimal Energy to 4000 battle stats about here:

Level_Value = 948
E_Value = 600
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 2001
D_Value = 2001
XP_Value = 5616992
Days: 824
BSI: 4.22
LSI: 2.74
Combined: 6.96

And the comparisons requested:

Level_Value = 571
E_Value = 120
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1004
D_Value = 1003
XP_Value = 2037848
Days: 432
BSI: 3.51
LSI: 3.71
Combined: 7.23

Level_Value = 612
E_Value = 500
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1003
D_Value = 1002
XP_Value = 2340992
Days: 407
BSI: 3.28
LSI: 4.08
Combined: 7.36

Level_Value = 707
E_Value = 1000
S_Value = 1000
A_Value = 1002
D_Value = 1001
XP_Value = 3124148
Days: 431
BSI: 2.83
LSI: 4.24
Combined: 7.08

Favor Points leftover is also an interesting stat. I'm going to look at that some, and also do a more thorough look at the changes I made and make sure there aren't any obvious programming errors.

For giggles - The PVP Build Dragon Farmer:

Level_Value = 287
E_Value = 96
S_Value = 96
A_Value = 1005
D_Value = 1005
XP_Value = 514898
Days: 320
BSI: 7
LSI: 1
Combined: 8.01

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 03:40 PM
Not quite right, there's a 20% chance of getting either 1 or 2 favor points from a demi point slot, which is 50/50 so on average you'll get 1,5 FP there. With these numbers you get 6 FP/1000 stamina which is exactly what our real data shows. This number has been verified by many others from several groups so it can pretty much be considered as a fact now. :)

Ahhh.... :)

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 03:49 PM
One thing to remember, despite the math, is that once all of your achievements and quests are completed, skill points come only from leveling. So, it follows that those who attain levels quicker than others will, eventually, surpass those who don't.


Most people don't consider that the higher your level, the more XP you have to spend for each level. All leveling rates slow as you go higher in levels. And, once you start spending stat points to Battle stats, you really feel those effects.

The PVP leveling build performs as it does because its low leveling stats keep the per level cost down and their low leveling speed really drives the Stat Point Per Level higher and higher.

Patrick D
06-08-2010, 03:53 PM
Optimal Energy to 2000 battle stats:

Level: 451
Energy: 460
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 1002
Defense: 1002
Days: 174

That's 5-6 months, my build is very similar to this and the time needed seems about right to me. I think I can do this within 5 months though, but I am also farming serpents and not just dragons. By the way, how does this compare to an old-school 120/120 build who is also farming dragons for FP?


Optimal Energy to 4000 battle stats is in this range:

Level: 763
Energy: 390
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 2001
Defense: 2001
Days: 544

Level: 775
Energy: 450
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 2002
Defense: 2001
Days: 544

And the comparisons requested:

Level: 687
Energy: 120
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 2003
Defense: 2003
Days: 657

Level: 784
Energy: 500
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 2002
Defense: 2002
Days: 549

Level: 877
Energy: 1000
Stamina: 1000
Attack: 2003
Defense: 2003
Days: 585

Interesting, thanks. :) Seems like keeping your energy very low at 120 isn't a very good idea, at least not when you farm only dragons for FP.

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 03:56 PM
I think the reason most people don't back up their power leveling claims with some hard facts is because there are so many variables to consider. For instance, will I micro-manage my account to ensure no energy/stamina is wasted? (Impossible?) Will I attack exclusively dragons? (Probably not). Will I always invest skill points according to plan? (Nope). Will I always use my Demi bonuses the moment they're available? (No).


I think the reasons people who have experience don't back up their claims:

1. The drop out rate at extreme builds is also pretty extreme
2. General dislike for sharing their stats on public forums
3. They just don't like the way this forum is run

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 03:59 PM
That's 5-6 months, my build is very similar to this and the time needed seems about right to me. I think I can do this within 5 months though, but I am also farming serpents and not just dragons. By the way, how does this compare to an old-school 120/120 build who is also farming dragons for FP?


Level_Value = 296
E_Value = 120
S_Value = 120
A_Value = 1005
D_Value = 1004
XP_Value = 547692
Days: 318
BSI: 6.79
LSI: 1.22
Combined: 8

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 04:04 PM
Interesting, thanks. :) Seems like keeping your energy very low at 120 isn't a very good idea, at least not when you farm only dragons for FP.

Depends on how long-term your goals are, really. The model is really only performing well when quest completion time is close to the goal time.

Questing is probably the next area I'll tackle with refinements.

igtenos
06-08-2010, 04:11 PM
Most people don't consider that the higher your level, the more XP you have to spend for each level. All leveling rates slow as you go higher in levels. And, once you start spending stat points to Battle stats, you really feel those effects.

The PVP leveling build performs as it does because its low leveling stats keep the per level cost down and their low leveling speed really drives the Stat Point Per Level higher and higher.
I can definitely tell the difference now as I get closer to level 200 compared to when I was in the early 100s. I used to be able to power through the levels just on spamming duel cefka's champion. Now? Even fighting dragons and spamming DCC, I have a level gap between 200 to 400 xp to make up.

Also....


I think the reason most people don't back up their power leveling claims with some hard facts is because there are so many variables to consider. For instance, will I micro-manage my account to ensure no energy/stamina is wasted? (Impossible?) Will I attack exclusively dragons? (Probably not). Will I always invest skill points according to plan? (Nope). Will I always use my Demi bonuses the moment they're available? (No).

So, I think its possible to discuss best case scenarios. But the reality is there's a large range in the middle where most of us fall. Even if you are a trust fund baby and don't have to work, you have to go boating once in a while. And then there's the rest of us with jobs, families, and other hobbies.

One thing to remember, despite the math, is that once all of your achievements and quests are completed, skill points come only from leveling. So, it follows that those who attain levels quicker than others will, eventually, surpass those who don't.

I would like to see the difference between someone who brings Energy and Stamina to 120 each and then invests in Attack/Defense, and someone who invest in Energy and Stamina to 300 each, and then in Attack/Defense. Then, 500.
There also is this strange level of secrecy among the power levelers. It reminds me of when I joined my first raiding guild way back when I played FFXI. Apparently back in those days the mentality that all strategies for bosses were supposed to be top secret hush-hush. Eventually things got to a point where the boss strats were posted as soon as they were killed, but back then secrecy was a big deal. It's like talking about power level secrets are a big taboo even in general. Some act like somehow knowing someone's build will magically make everything clear....

So part of it is that there aren't that many detailed information about power levelers and what they did. That might change as Dave O, Ahmulag Ra, and myself progress, but you are dead right about the variables involved in xp which can vary wildly from level or monster. Like I said before, I can spam DCC and blow all my stamina on a red dragon and still be way off for my next level. It's even worse if I decide to go Cronus hunting or spend my energy on finishing quests. Then I'm really boned nearly as bad as if I was on my FB acount. :(

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 04:32 PM
Most people don't consider that the higher your level, the more XP you have to spend for each level. All leveling rates slow as you go higher in levels. And, once you start spending stat points to Battle stats, you really feel those effects.

The PVP leveling build performs as it does because its low leveling stats keep the per level cost down and their low leveling speed really drives the Stat Point Per Level higher and higher.

All players have access to the quests/achievements. But not all players will get the same skill points from leveling, becuase PvP builds hit the leveling plateau LONG BEFORE power levelers do.

So it comes down to:
1) A hard-hitting, easily tired heavyweight; or
2) A softer-hitting, but light on its feet lightweight; or
3) Something in the middle.

Also, I think you have to distinguish between Dueling and Invading PvP builds. Attack/Defense is more important for Duelers than Invaders. Yes, it's always important... but if a character can fill his army with 60/60 Chronuses because of his ability to tackle 5-6 monsters at a time, rather than 1-2, then I think it's a wash in the end.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 04:52 PM
There also is this strange level of secrecy among the power levelers. It reminds me of when I joined my first raiding guild way back when I played FFXI. Apparently back in those days the mentality that all strategies for bosses were supposed to be top secret hush-hush. Eventually things got to a point where the boss strats were posted as soon as they were killed, but back then secrecy was a big deal. It's like talking about power level secrets are a big taboo even in general. Some act like somehow knowing someone's build will magically make everything clear....

So part of it is that there aren't that many detailed information about power levelers and what they did. That might change as Dave O, Ahmulag Ra, and myself progress, but you are dead right about the variables involved in xp which can vary wildly from level or monster. Like I said before, I can spam DCC and blow all my stamina on a red dragon and still be way off for my next level. It's even worse if I decide to go Cronus hunting or spend my energy on finishing quests. Then I'm really boned nearly as bad as if I was on my FB acount. :(

Well, in the end, I think that the power levelers (1,000+) are either sitting on some great secrets, using credit cards, or hacks. Lets not forget that the Devs, whoever they are, probably hold accounts themselves to work out all the bugs. Orlando, for instance... lives in "Brazil" but speaks perfect English...

Just looking at the math that Rutherford provided... 1,000 days to reach the top??? They're doing something.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 04:58 PM
Depends on how long-term your goals are, really. The model is really only performing well when quest completion time is close to the goal time.

Questing is probably the next area I'll tackle with refinements.

Be sure to check out the calculations I made in my thread:
http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?p=1169756#post1169756

Why double the work?

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 05:34 PM
All players have access to the quests/achievements. But not all players will get the same skill points from leveling, becuase PvP builds hit the leveling plateau LONG BEFORE power levelers do.

So it comes down to:
1) A hard-hitting, easily tired heavyweight; or
2) A softer-hitting, but light on its feet lightweight; or
3) Something in the middle.

Also, I think you have to distinguish between Dueling and Invading PvP builds. Attack/Defense is more important for Duelers than Invaders. Yes, it's always important... but if a character can fill his army with 60/60 Chronuses because of his ability to tackle 5-6 monsters at a time, rather than 1-2, then I think it's a wash in the end.

This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about in the op.

The invasion calculation is known. Show us what you mean.


Well, in the end, I think that the power levelers (1,000+) are either sitting on some great secrets, using credit cards, or hacks. Lets not forget that the Devs, whoever they are, probably hold accounts themselves to work out all the bugs. Orlando, for instance... lives in "Brazil" but speaks perfect English...

Just looking at the math that Rutherford provided... 1,000 days to reach the top??? They're doing something.

My only friend from Brazil speaks English and French as well as Portuguese and Spanish.


Be sure to check out the calculations I made in my thread:
http://www.castleageforums.com/cforum/showthread.php?p=1169756#post1169756

Why double the work?

Your thread was the starting point for my Energy Per Stat Point figure. I started out with just the full quests that have sub-quests for an easy average. A clan member then added the Heaven lands and did the average across all lands which is where my current figures come from.

When I get around to a next version, I'll probably use a full list of quests ordered like yours and have an option to check off the quests completed for builds in progress.

I'm working towards creating a tool where the player says the type of build they want and the tool gives some LSI-based suggestions on reaching that goal.

My aim is to create a Hybrid Power Leveling theory, since that's my own personal preference for play. Something that tries to balance being strong in all areas of the game through the entire time playing. It's the build I find gives the player the most freedom to set their own goals.

I've tried out a bunch of strategies. One I enjoyed for a while was keeping my Leveling stats equal to my Land allowance. It keeps your LSI above a 3 and tries to power levels in 10 level increments. But, I soon noticed that having a higher Energy rate would lead to an increase stat points per level score and I believe 10 levels is too small an increment to get the best benefit from power leveling.

Patrick D
06-08-2010, 05:36 PM
Just looking at the math that Rutherford provided... 1,000 days to reach the top??? They're doing something.

A CC gets you anywhere you want, whenever you want. And his math is far from complete, only dragons have been included so far and they are not the best FP machines.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 06:27 PM
Your thread was the starting point for my Energy Per Stat Point figure. I started out with just the full quests that have sub-quests for an easy average. A clan member then added the Heaven lands and did the average across all lands which is where my current figures come from.

When I get around to a next version, I'll probably use a full list of quests ordered like yours and have an option to check off the quests completed for builds in progress.

Thank you for admitting that. We're really all on the same team here, despite the spirit of debate. It is a rather small fraction of the Castle Age community that even vists/posts on the forums. I've been reading them for a while, but didn't bother joining up until I thought up the ASPC concept.

As far as my lack of numbers, I am posting while at work (now)-- can't get that wrapped up into it. But, as I mentioned before, there are so many numbers and equations involved with this stuff any model I put forward can be slashed to pieces by tweaking the numbers. And, in the end, actual Castle Age playing behavior is what determines success... not models.

I'll run some numbers later today...

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 06:38 PM
My only friend from Brazil speaks English and French as well as Portuguese and Spanish.


I'm aware that people outside America tend to speak more than one language due to European imperialism, etc. My only point is that someone who has 1,000+ levels . . . might . . . be a Dev. I suppose there are players out there willing to invest several hundred dollars into this game. I have already spent about $75 on my collector account, because I don't want to farm dragons/serpents 24/7.

But to achieve those high levels, and still have High King status is arguably impossible for a 2,000 energy/stamina, 0 attack/defense build. So they are either pumping hundreds of dollars into the game, have a magic formula, or a hack (i.e. Dev access to scripting).

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Thank you for admitting that.

Admitting? I've been pushing your thread in build advice posts here and in two other forums. I've easily recommended it more than any other thread, including avsquare's excellent guide to PVP which has been around a lot longer.

If you're sore about the rest of the way I beat on you in the forum, I'll be glad to tone it down. You're definitely an asset to the community.

I'm probably only hard on you because I used the handle Glamdring all through college. ;)

icollyer
06-08-2010, 06:54 PM
I'm happy to give some input from the serpent-slayer camp.

With my attack at 800 and Barbarus, hitting serpents for 200k except reds at 300k, I'd conservatively estimate it takes me 800 stamina to earn the 10FPs for a refill.

In theory (I only have 481 stamina at the moment) once you have 800 stamina the only limit to your leveling speed is finding enough serpents to kill.

If you can earn enough FPs from one stamina refill to pay for your next one, the amount of xp required per level becomes irrelevant.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 06:58 PM
Admitting? I've been pushing your thread in build advice posts here and in two other forums. I've easily recommended it more than any other thread, including avsquare's excellent guide to PVP which has been around a lot longer.

If you're sore about the rest of the way I beat on you in the forum, I'll be glad to tone it down. You're definitely an asset to the community.

I'm probably only hard on you because I used the handle Glamdring all through college. ;)

LOL... no worries man. And Glamdring is a great screenname, but people who aren't Tolkien nerds won't get it... FOEHAMMER sounds cool, even to non-Tolkien fans... :)

I was also wondering how my thread got 1,500 views, with only 36 posts.... but most of the good information is on the first page and there isn't really a whole lot to dispute. I made no build recs, other than the one on the 2nd page (which I don't follow), and really tried to stay as objective as possible.

I'm also not emotionally attached to any one style or another. I have four Facebook accounts, because editing my friends list everytime FB changes the privacy settings is annoying. So, my playing style is evolving over time. My Main was a slow leveling PvP, but I'm transitioning it to PvM. My other accounts I use for support, but don't spend more than $5 or so to get a gen or two I like (Slayer/Kaiser, and now Barbarus).

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 07:04 PM
I'm happy to give some input from the serpent-slayer camp.

With my attack at 800 and Barbarus, hitting serpents for 200k except reds at 300k, I'd conservatively estimate it takes me 800 stamina to earn the 10FPs for a refill.

In theory (I only have 481 stamina at the moment) once you have 800 stamina the only limit to your leveling speed is finding enough serpents to kill.

If you can earn enough FPs from one stamina refill to pay for your next one, the amount of xp required per level becomes irrelevant.

That's what's so awesome about serpents. They tend to die quicker than dragons, and are much easier to generate (1 egg vs. 4 eggs). And I think I like even the Emerald loot better than the Red Dragon loot... feels more exotic.

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 07:14 PM
That's what's so awesome about serpents. They tend to die quicker than dragons, and are much easier to generate (1 egg vs. 4 eggs). And I think I like even the Emerald loot better than the Red Dragon loot... feels more exotic.

Plus, there's the Phalanx. Getting one is on my list . . . but it's a rather long list.

icollyer
06-08-2010, 07:19 PM
Plus, there's the Phalanx. Getting one is on my list . . . but it's a rather long list.

I have two :p, but I'm taking a short break from serpents to kill Azriel and Genesis for War loot.

That's ultimately why these discussions will only ever be theoretical, there's so many new shinies to chase that no-one will stick to a one-track plan.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 07:20 PM
Plus, there's the Phalanx. Getting one is on my list . . . but it's a rather long list.

Yeah, I'm in the club. So that's another added benefit. And even if you consider Dragon Helms, serpents give you the Atlantean Forcefield, which is arguably easier to get since there are no level restrictions on summoning.

icollyer
06-08-2010, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I'm in the club. So that's another added benefit. And even if you consider Dragon Helms, serpents give you the Atlantean Forcefield, which is arguably easier to get since there are no level restrictions on summoning.

Yeah, I've got 52 Wolf Spirits and 54 Atlantean Forcefields, both better than Royal Seals.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 07:37 PM
Yeah, I've got 52 Wolf Spirits and 54 Atlantean Forcefields, both better than Royal Seals.

I pretty much only self gift serpent eggs. You can always hop onto somebody else's Bahamut... they'd welcome you.

And this bridges back toward another point I made. Models are great. But its actual gameplay behavior that matters.

A level 110 Baron is impressive... but not as impressive to me as a guy who's got 50 Genesis Swords, 25 Volcanic Helms, 85 Chronuses, and ... 54 Atlantean shields. ;)

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 07:46 PM
All of this would be solved if the Devs just let us gift eachother Stamina/Energy potions like in every other "wars" game. But maybe that's what makes Castle Age so addicting. Legitimacy.

Foehammer
06-08-2010, 08:28 PM
BTW, I've got a stupid question for you.

Your formula is (12.5 * Level) + 6.25 or whatever. What's the formula for actually knowing how much experience you'd need at a given level? I can do it in a spreadsheet with different cells and all that, but is there an algorithm I'm missing?

Rutherford
06-08-2010, 08:58 PM
http://www.wtamu.edu/academic/anns/mps/math/mathlab/col_algebra/col_alg_tut54bsum2.gif

Where Ai = (12.5 * i) + 6.25 and N is the level you seek.


Like everything, it's close.

Foehammer
06-09-2010, 02:46 PM
http://www.wtamu.edu/academic/anns/mps/math/mathlab/col_algebra/col_alg_tut54bsum2.gif

Where Ai = (12.5 * i) + 6.25 and N is the level you seek.


Like everything, it's close.

Thanks. But maybe this is why most people prefer spreadsheets.... LOL! :D

Splarticus
06-12-2010, 01:14 PM
Wow. I've been doing the same calcs, Rutherford. I should have asked you what you wanted it for back when I answered your question about how many total SPs from quests are available.

First off, some anecdotal evidence from an actual player. I power leveled to level 300. Here's the approximate results:

Level_Value = 300
E_Value = 1000
S_Value = 650
A_Value = 250
D_Value = 50
XP_Value = ?
Days: 135
BSI: 1.00
LSI: 7.66
Combined: 8.66

To do that, I put an unreasonable amount of time in the game, ;) and aggressively went after achievement awards (getting 5000 duel wins with a BSI of 1 was. . . hard).

Since then, I've done a lot of calculation to find out how the game progresses. Some conclusions:

Energy spent early on does pay off in faster leveling and more SPs. From your assumptions above that 244 energy points/SP from influence on quests, that means for every point spent on Energy, 244 levels later, you will get 1 point payback in another SP. That's a good reason to put all points into Energy early on, since the returns continue even after you get that first point back until all quest influence is complete.

After all the quests are at 100% influence, though, there's little benefit to putting ANY more points in Energy. I reached that point at about level 300, not including some Aurora quests, and Heaven wasn't out then.

On average, every level costs you 12.5 more xp to reach the next level. If you spend your 5 SPs from leveling up on Energy, at best you get 5 * 1.725 = 8.6 more exp, leaving a gap of an additional 3.9 xp to reach the next level. This increases your time to level up by about 6 minutes. Longer leveling means less stamina for fighting monsters or players. If your goal is either kind of fight, you decrease your potential if you put points in energy after maxed out on influence.

The only other reason to put more points into energy after quests are done is to get more bang for your FP if you're a cc player. Otherwise, set a target level by when you want to complete most quests, and once your energy is high enough to complete the quests by that level, never add another SP to energy.

Stamina is interesting as well. Adding a point to Stamina both increases xp to reduce leveling time and gives you another point to kill monsters. Unfortunately, the game is really well balanced. If you spend your 5 SPs from a new level on stamina, you will have a slight increase in attacks against monsters or players, and an proportional increase in the time it takes to go up a level. Net-net, you gain no increased damage against monsters or players.

Attack is the only way to increase monster damage sustainably after the influence levels are done. This helps both in monster hunting and pvp. If your leveling speed and stamina are too high (stamina * days/level > 288) then initially your total monster damage output will go down, but once your level-up refills have less impact on total stamina than stamina from the timer, then attack continues to boost damage all the way.

If I had to do it over again, I'd go largely pure energy until 750, with maybe 120 stamina, and all battle stats after that.

Patrick D
06-12-2010, 01:38 PM
I see you haven't considered FP farming and refills. That would be the most important reason to keep increasing energy and/or stamina. And you say that increasing attack is the only way to increase monster damage sustainably after influence levels are done? I have to disagree there, if you increase attack the damage on monsters will increase, but it will take more time to level up so that balances out as well just like you claimed adding stamina would. Increasing stamina is usually better actually because you get more out of refills.

Rutherford
06-12-2010, 07:13 PM
I have to disagree there, if you increase attack the damage on monsters will increase, but it will take more time to level up so that balances out as well just like you claimed adding stamina would. Increasing stamina is usually better actually because you get more out of refills.

What if you're fighting Azriel?

Splarticus
06-12-2010, 11:58 PM
@ Patrick
Decreased refills from slower leveling from spending points on attack is accounted for. If your stamina is high and leveling speed reasonable, then the slower leveling time does lower overall damage output. However, eventually, when leveling slows down to longer than once a day, then the stamina you regain from time (288 sta/day) becomes greater than the stamina you get from refills. At this point, the increase in hitting power from every swing from more attack becomes greater than the decrease in refills from longer leveling time. After that point is reached, every addition to attack increases overall damage.

As for raising stamina for refills, you only need enough stamina or energy to be able to instantly level you up after spending your stamina and energy refill. At my point, I have a little over 700 stamina now. Thats enough to get 1500 xp points even fighting a low return monster like a hydra. Figuring an average of 42 xp/hour regain from energy and stamina, that means I'll be able to jump 36 hours from a stamina refill right now. Since my leveling time is still less than 24 hours, that extra 12 hours is wasted. No need for me to increase my stamina any more at this point, even for refills.

Since you can pick which to refill, energy or stamina, I would pick energy, and let stamina stay lower. More SPs from the energy points.