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Micheal Knight
05-30-2010, 08:32 PM
Step 1: Find Wallet
Step 2: Pull out card...

Just Kidding!

Preface:
I started Castle Age with three goals in mind: Complete all the Quests, Fight all the Monsters, and Collect all the Generals. Imagine my surprise to find out even with thousands of FP I'd never have all the generals! Thankfully, it is possible to hunt FP in-game, though, not how you'd expect. In your typical Facebook Quest/Pvp game, you get FP for level ups. Not in Castle Age! Instead they reward you with FP for completing achievements and defeating monsters. Of those monsters Dragons and Serpents come out ahead in effort to reward ratio.
And so the Countdown (Fp Group) was born...

Monsters Types:

Dragons are unique to Castle Age in that the ATK/DEF stats do not play any role in the fight. They are also unique for being the most efficient for Stamina to Experience ratio.


Serpents on the other hand are effected by ATK/DEF and follow the rules of your typical first generation monster.

___________________________________________


Analyzing Dragons:
Dragons are great for new players who haven't had the chance to pump ATK/DEF yet. They also provide an extra boost for experience to help level out of the newbie range. Until your Power Attacks on Ancient Red Serpents hit for 18,077 your better off with dragons. Even then, they are still good if you wish to level quickly.


Dragon Health:
Instead of having hit points for health, dragons have stamina based health. The damage you see is purely cosmetic, it does not have any effect on the monsters health or your own reward at the end.

Emerald Dragon Health : ~167 PA (835 Stamina)


Frost Dragon Health : ~334 PA (1670 Stamina)


Gold Dragon Health : ~584 PA (2920 Stamina)


Ancient Dragon Health : ~1000 PA (5000 Stamina)


But Micheal! We don't care about dragon health! Just tell us the optimal damage to farm FPs already!

Well you see, you have to understand that to understand this next part...
DAMAGE IS IRRELEVANT!
Your reward is based on how many Power Attacks you do, and that alone. Speed kills don't change your loot. Extra critical hits don't change your loot. Someone hitting for 203,934 damage using 30PA will get the exact same reward slots as someone hitting for 100,544 damage who hit for 30PA.
Do you understand?



FP and Demi Slots:
When we hunt for FP we don't care about how many epics we'll get; we care about demi slots.
According to Chun-Yi Lin from the Fp Farmer group each demi slot has a calculated chance to become FP.
Also each demi slot has a % chance to become an Energy Potion.
Morrigan and Angelica do NOT increase demi slots! Just demi points as you can see when their ability activates.


Emerald Dragons: ?% chance at (1)Fp / ?% E Potion


Frost Dragons: ?% chance at (1)Fp / ?% E Potion


Gold Dragons: 10%(was 20%) chance at (1-2)Fp / 5% E Potion


Ancient Dragons: 15%(was 20%) chance at (1-2)Fp / 5% E Potion



Optimal PAs for ALL Dragons:
Critical Hits do not change your stamina contribution requirement, you must always contribute 140 stamina to hit sweet spot.
This means a critical hit will not give you 2 or 3 bonus PA, it will hurt the monster more, but has no effect on your reward.
Again, a critical with Orc King is the same as a normal hit, 25 stamina used, 5PA.

27 PAs will typically reward 1-3 demi slots (Tagging / Low Reward)


28 PAs will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Sweet Spot)


60 PAs will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Over-hitting)


150 PAs will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Severe Over-hitting)



Barbarius/Orc King Rumor: SOLVED
According to rumors, these two generals provide less loot when used on dragons.

They DO NOT EFFECT total Demi Slots!
They are safe to use on Dragons and Serpents.

We reached this conclusion by the "Slot Unlock" theory we learned while working with serpents. Fp Conversion rate is Constant, it doesn't change based on more damage. Once you do enough damage to unlock a slot, nothing else will change until you unlock your next slot.

Hence, 28 PA will unlock 4th slot.
10PA with Barbarius will unlock 4th slot.
6PA with Orc King will unlock 4th slot.

___________________________________________


Analyzing Serpents:
When do you want to switch from dragons to serpents?
8% for Serpents, 15% for Dragons, with new optimal PA 28...
0.08/0.15 * 28PA = 14 PA to match.

You'll have to hit the sweet spot damage in 13 or less Power Attacks
235,000 (Currently) divided by 13 = 18,077 *Damage at which Serpents > Dragons after nerf


Serpent Health:

Emerald Serpent Health: 1,500k (~300k Fortify)


Sapphire Serpent Health: 3,000k (~750k Fortify)


Amethyst Serpent Health: 6,000k (~1,000k Fortify)


Ancient Serpent Health: 9,000k (~2,000k Fortify)



Serpent Damage Formulas:
A full elite guard does effect Atk/Def. Without a full elite guard expect a -10SP decline. Additionally, the Apprentice bonus does effect this.
General does have an effect on damage, Kataan will give about 200 more dmg vs using Morrigan. This means Elin is slightly better than Zarevok.

*Below attack data tested with fresh Ancient Serpent summons (50% fort)

Attack: (Data tested with Full EG, BiS gear, and Elin (+20Matk)) Attack is highly volatile unlike defense; keep in mind these are only estimates.


=(Tests with Morrigan)=
0-89 = ~11,400
90 = ~13,200
100 = ~15,200
110 = ~16,200
120 = ~17,200 (Equals same as 100 with Elin, but using Morrigan, 100 decline)


=(Tests with Elin)=
100 = ~17,300
150 = ~19,500
200 = ~20,900
250 = ~22,000
300 = ~22,900

Defense: (Data tested with Full EG and BiS gear!)

0-99 = ~6,500
100 = ~11,500
150 = ~15,500
200 = ~17,500
250 = ~19,100
300 = ~20,300
350 = ~21,400
400 = ~22,200
450 = ~23,000
500 = ~23,700



FP and Demi Slots:

Emerald Serpents: 1%(was 2%) chance at (1)Fp / 10% E Potion


Sapphire Serpents: 3%(was 5%) chance at (1)Fp / 10% E Potion


Amethyst Serpents: 6%(was 10%) chance at (1-2)Fp / 5% E Potion


Ancient Serpents: 8%(was 15%) chance at (1-2)Fp / 5% E Potion



Optimal Combined for Serpents:
You might ask, "Where's the Emerald and Sapphire data?"
Well those aren't ideal for Fp Hunting so I omitted the data.

Amethyst:

155k will typically reward 1-3 demi slots (Tagging / Low Reward)


160k will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Sweet Spot)


320k will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Over-hitting)


1,000k will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Severe Over-hitting)

Ancient:

230k will typically reward 1-3 demi slots (Tagging / Low Reward)


235k will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Sweet Spot)


470k will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Over-hitting)


2,000k will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Severe Over-hitting)


___________________________________________


UPDATE: SKARR!

FP and Demi Slots:

Skarr: 20% chance at (1)Fp / ?% E Potion



Looking at Skarr from a different perspective than Dragons and Serpents:
We can't tag and optimize damage on Skarr, instead we can only follow achievement or slightly above achievement damage.

Why?
The optimal range for Dragons falls under the required range for a Kill.
50/50 slots do 20PA and the Dragon dies. Recommended Range is 28PA. (Above minimal)

The optimal range for Serpents falls under the required range for a Kill.
50/50 slots do 180k damage and the Serpent dies. Recommended Range is 235k. (Above minimal)

The minimal range for Skarr has to be Achievement damage. (1,000k)
70/70 do 500k damage and Skarr will Fail even with all weapons launched. (Below minimal)
Sure you might have a few overhitters but the Skarr will fail if you try to optimize it.
This will generally get you chained by alot of people. So it's best to just follow the Achievement damage for minimum contribution.



Suggested Combined for Skarr:
We shouldn't Tag Skarrs like we do Dragons and Serpents, so instead I'll give you suggested ranges.
These won't be Demi Slot based as much as recommended acceptable ranges, remember these are real bosses, you can't tag!


500k - 1 Epic Slot / No Achievement / Tagging!! Not Recommended!!


1,000k - 1 Epic Slot / Achievement Damage / Minimum Fair Contribution


2,500k - 2 Epic Slots / Helpful Contribution / Highly Recommended, 2 Epic slots too


7,500k - 2 to 3 Epic Slot / Very Helpful / Above Average, chance at 3 epics


+10,000k - 3 Epic Slot / Extremely Helpful / No Damage Range is overhitting on Skarr



This concludes the Countdown FP Guide.
Special Thanks to everyone who helped us test these results over the past months, you guys rock!

Countdown (Disbanded)
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=29827
Fp Farmers
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=35904
Monkey eating a banana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYvJWj5QQuc

EpiQC
05-30-2010, 08:39 PM
Monkey eating a banana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYvJWj5QQuc

Lol, that was random. Great guide by a fellow group member. :D

Hail Countdown!

RAUKO
05-30-2010, 08:57 PM
Dragons are set in stone. 20 PA = 2 Demi ; 30 PA = 3 Demi ; etc.


Not set in stone, as you probably know. 20 PA may give you 2 slots, 30PA may give you 3 slots, 40 PA may give you 4 slots, 50 PA are usually unlikely to give you 5 slots.

Micheal Knight
05-30-2010, 08:59 PM
Not set in stone, as you probably know. 20 PA may give you 2 slots, 30PA may give you 3 slots, 40 PA may give you 4 slots, 50 PA are usually unlikely to give you 5 slots.

My apologies, actually what I was going to type was 1-3 2-4 3-4 4-5, in the gust of things I left that out.

RAUKO
05-30-2010, 09:03 PM
My apologies, actually what I was going to type was 1-3 2-4 3-4 4-5, in the gust of things I left that out.

I thought to point it out before people start to post " I did xx on dragon and got less then you told"
When you come to any conclusions on serpents - please post :)

Pokpokkeh
05-31-2010, 02:12 AM
sorry, a bit out of topic,
will the loot be affected if i use orc king for other monsters (hydras..etc)?
any idea?

RAUKO
05-31-2010, 02:36 AM
He is definitely fine on serpents, Cronus shouldn't be any different.

EpiQC
05-31-2010, 02:38 AM
I have a quick question. Do energy potions count as a demi point slot? Because I just did 100k on a dragon (~40 PA) and I only received 1 demi slot + 1 energy potion.

RAUKO
05-31-2010, 02:41 AM
I would say yes. Almost certain about that. Energy potions/demis/FPs.

labalaba
05-31-2010, 02:49 AM
good info, thanks for sharing this
I'll bookmark it when you're done with the serpents :)

Ranz
05-31-2010, 03:15 AM
Uhm, what exactly did you mean when you said 40PA?

Is it x40 PA buttons hit or 40sta consumed for power attacks? Just clarifying...

Gunther89
05-31-2010, 03:48 AM
Uhm, what exactly did you mean when you said 40PA?

Is it x40 PA buttons hit or 40sta consumed for power attacks? Just clarifying...

i would assume doing 40 Power attacks, eg 200 stamina.

oh and Epic i didnt know you were with us

Ahmulag Ra
05-31-2010, 04:15 AM
Uhm, what exactly did you mean when you said 40PA?

Is it x40 PA buttons hit or 40sta consumed for power attacks? Just clarifying...

Number of times you click the power attack button.

Ranz
05-31-2010, 04:25 AM
thnx for clarifyng

boboqiao
05-31-2010, 03:10 PM
Tested it myself...dont see a diff anyway with using OK and do like 800k damage (about 20 PA)...i still get my x2 to x3 epics

I tried clicking to death a frost dragon by myself (yes myself) with a full STAM bar with x5 stam PA...that's like a few hundred PAs and i get x2 epics. Tried doing another frost dragon with OK alone, same results...so i believe OK does amplify the amount of the PA(taken into the loot theory consideration).

Besides, if i do click those 5STAM PA...gonna take me 200+ clicks to finish up my stamina @_@

oh and if u're talking about the Demi slots...i usually get 4-6 slots with OK...dont see the diff anyway, just a funny incident, i hitted a green dragon for about 30k damage (1PA) and i got 2 FP from it...dont ask me how lol, it's weird >_<

Chepmaster
06-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Tested it myself...dont see a diff anyway with using OK and do like 800k damage (about 20 PA)...i still get my x2 to x3 epics

I tried clicking to death a frost dragon by myself (yes myself) with a full STAM bar with x5 stam PA...that's like a few hundred PAs and i get x2 epics. Tried doing another frost dragon with OK alone, same results...so i believe OK does amplify the amount of the PA(taken into the loot theory consideration).

Besides, if i do click those 5STAM PA...gonna take me 200+ clicks to finish up my stamina @_@

oh and if u're talking about the Demi slots...i usually get 4-6 slots with OK...dont see the diff anyway, just a funny incident, i hitted a green dragon for about 30k damage (1PA) and i got 2 FP from it...dont ask me how lol, it's weird >_<

800K dmg or solo killing is absolutely inefficient,you can do 200K to 4 dragons and get much more epics and many many more demi slots and respectively FPs.And about the 1 PA-you just got 1 demi slot for it and lucky for you it turned out to be 2FPs demi slot,nothing strange about it :)

Wollknäuel
06-01-2010, 03:58 PM
So spending 1000 stamina means nearly 6 FP in average. A stamina refill (10 FP) therefore doesn't pay itself, only if it allows you to level and if you have got enough stamina (let's say 700 or more). Though you would have levelled anyway, even without the 10 FP, just later.

Hmm well, without real focus on stamina this FP farming seems quite cumbersome, but it's your choice of course. I was talking about dragons only.

Rutherford
06-01-2010, 06:29 PM
Tell me about farming Skaar for Favor Points. :D

I haven't tested, because the steady diet of a single monster type would kill my enjoyment of the game. However, I've suspected that you could easily supplement a lack of Serpents with some of the boss monsters . . . if you weren't a Stamina-based power leveling build.

Slashmeehup
06-01-2010, 08:22 PM
So spending 1000 stamina means nearly 6 FP in average. A stamina refill (10 FP) therefore doesn't pay itself, only if it allows you to level and if you have got enough stamina (let's say 700 or more). Though you would have levelled anyway, even without the 10 FP, just later.

Hmm well, without real focus on stamina this FP farming seems quite cumbersome, but it's your choice of course. I was talking about dragons only.

This, of course, assuming you're a purely power leveling build with minimal attack. Once you've maxed your stamina and can start investing in other stats, it's possible you may get better returns fighting damage-based monsters.

reznor
06-02-2010, 08:01 PM
Is there an easy way to show how many PA's you've done on the monster without keeping track of it manually on paper?

Chepmaster
06-02-2010, 11:07 PM
manually?? on paper??? aaaaahahaha :D 30 PA are 150 stamina,if you have 200 keep hitting until you have 50 left and there you have it...you do not need paper buddy :D

reznor
06-03-2010, 02:40 AM
manually?? on paper??? aaaaahahaha :D 30 PA are 150 stamina,if you have 200 keep hitting until you have 50 left and there you have it...you do not need paper buddy :D

lol yeah i know. however I only have 15 stamina so its not as easy for me.

teckchun
06-04-2010, 02:50 AM
Red dragons are brought down by the number of PA done to it and not the damage done to it??

Attack stats doesnt count when attacking dragons???

Does that mean the same goes for Emerald dragons?

RAUKO
06-04-2010, 02:54 AM
It does. For all dragons.

teckchun
06-04-2010, 03:00 AM
Thanks for your quick reply.

i mean... i have been hitting 2.8k with a PA on emerald. and i saw a guy hitting 5.6k with a PA(without critical) and i checked with him, he is using Zaravok as general, not OK or babarus

Doesnt that make the stamina required by him to bring down a emerald dragon lesser by half?

Dynme
06-04-2010, 05:16 AM
Nope, the big shiny numbers you see when attacking a dragon are just for show. You can actually go over to the dragon help thread in the forums and click through a few dead ones to see the difference yourself.

RAUKO
06-04-2010, 05:23 AM
Red dragons are brought down by the number of PA done to it and not the damage done to it??

Attack stats doesnt count when attacking dragons???

Does that mean the same goes for Emerald dragons?


Thanks for your quick reply.

i mean... i have been hitting 2.8k with a PA on emerald. and i saw a guy hitting 5.6k with a PA(without critical) and i checked with him, he is using Zaravok as general, not OK or babarus

Doesnt that make the stamina required by him to bring down a emerald dragon lesser by half?

:confused: Interesting :rolleyes:

tricker
06-04-2010, 05:36 AM
Is there an easy way to show how many PA's you've done on the monster without keeping track of it manually on paper?
Take your total dmg done to the dragon and divide that by your average attack. Example you have done ~36,144 dmg so far and your Power attack does ~3,012 dmg. You would have done 12 Power Attacks. If you do a Critical Hit your total damage will be higher.

teckchun
06-04-2010, 05:47 AM
Taken from http://castleage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon

* Emerald Dragons: 325,000 - 690,000 HP
* Frost Dragons: 690,000 - 1,030,000 HP
* Gold Dragons: 1,200,000 - 3,030,000 HP
* Ancient Red Dragons: 2,400,000 - 4,000,000 HP

Then, by using number of PA to bring down a dragon doesn't make sense to me anymore. Since some people may be hitting x2, x3 or maybe more to dragons compared to what u may be hitting.

RAUKO
06-04-2010, 05:52 AM
Taken from http://castleage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon

* Emerald Dragons: 325,000 - 690,000 HP
* Frost Dragons: 690,000 - 1,030,000 HP
* Gold Dragons: 1,200,000 - 3,030,000 HP
* Ancient Red Dragons: 2,400,000 - 4,000,000 HP

Then, by using number of PA to bring down a dragon doesn't make sense to me anymore. Since some people may be hitting x2, x3 or maybe more to dragons compared to what u may be hitting.

Too bad. But what can you deduce from such large range of dragon HP?
*tip: Data on Wikia is correct (except max HP ;)
edit: another tip: dragons's max HP will rise in the future

Doiron
06-05-2010, 05:16 PM
great info. I'm currently working on serpents because of my high attack. One thing that I've noticed, that isn't addressed here, is that while the chance for getting a FP slot from a demi is 20%, the odds for getting 1 FP vs. 2 FP get better the more damage/stam you put in. I don't have hard data yet, but I suspect there's a sliding scale so that the firm targets that you have aren't quite as firm as they appear.

RAUKO
06-05-2010, 08:02 PM
great info. I'm currently working on serpents because of my high attack. One thing that I've noticed, that isn't addressed here, is that while the chance for getting a FP slot from a demi is 20%, the odds for getting 1 FP vs. 2 FP get better the more damage/stam you put in. I don't have hard data yet, but I suspect there's a sliding scale so that the firm targets that you have aren't quite as firm as they appear.

Very interesting theory, and not the one I've heard before.

Please do inform us if you come to any conclusion about that. That would be very useful.

Dave O
06-11-2010, 04:51 AM
wrong, each point slot has a 15% chance to become a FP slot, and each FP slot has a 50% of becoming a 2FP. Therefore, it is an average of 0.200 FP per point slot. 1FP or 2FP has nothing to do with stamina used. don't make claims based on 4 or 5 battles.

Do these numbers apply to Dragons, or Serpents, or both?

Foehammer
06-11-2010, 02:40 PM
wrong, each point slot has a 15% chance to become a FP slot, and each FP slot has a 50% of becoming a 2FP. Therefore, it is an average of 0.200 FP per point slot. 1FP or 2FP has nothing to do with stamina used. don't make claims based on 4 or 5 battles.

A simple "either/or" doesn't necessarily denote a 50/50 chance. Unless you have access to PHP code that I do not, how can you be so certain?

Doiron
06-11-2010, 03:31 PM
A simple "either/or" doesn't necessarily denote a 50/50 chance. Unless you have access to PHP code that I do not, how can you be so certain?

I have about 100 fights worth of data showing it's not straight 50/50, but I need probably at least another 100 to have any sense of certainty. Thankfully, it only took about a week, so I should have some decent data to report soon.

The preliminary is what some others have already stated earlier, for FPs go for amethyst and ancient serpents and avoid emerald and sapphire. Around 300k gets you 3.5 slots for an amethyst, 3.25 for an ancient.

If cloudzero has some data to back up his claim, I'd love to see it, but I assume he's just repeating what others have told him. The straight 15% shot for FP from demi slot is simply not true across all monsters. Emeralds you can get 4 demi slots from 250k, but the conversion rate to FP is pitifully low, around 2-5%. Sapphires are a little better, somewhere around 10%. Amethyst and Ancients are somewhere around 15%.

Patrick D
06-11-2010, 04:06 PM
I have about 100 fights worth of data showing it's not straight 50/50, but I need probably at least another 100 to have any sense of certainty. Thankfully, it only took about a week, so I should have some decent data to report soon.

I have collected data from over 1000 dragons and 500 serpents. It's exactly 50/50 between 1 and 2 FP. Also the chance for conversion from demi slot to FP depends on the monster. For dragons it's 20%, ancient serpents 15% and amethyst serpents 10%. I assume for Sapphires it's 5%, but I have only slain 27 sapphires so far and got 3 FP, after which I stopped doing them because they don't seem worth it to me.

Doiron
06-11-2010, 05:17 PM
sweet. what I've been seeing was that the emeralds and sapphires broke the 50/50 rule; they almost always give 1 FP. But because the conversion is so low, it's hard to say if that's the actual case or not.

would it be possible for you to share your data? I'd love to take a look at it.

RAUKO
06-11-2010, 06:11 PM
I have collected data from over 1000 dragons and 500 serpents. It's exactly 50/50 between 1 and 2 FP. Also the chance for conversion from demi slot to FP depends on the monster. For dragons it's 20%, ancient serpents 15% and amethyst serpents 10%. I assume for Sapphires it's 5%, but I have only slain 27 sapphires so far and got 3 FP, after which I stopped doing them because they don't seem worth it to me.

Never seen 2 FP slot on sapphire and emerald. I came to conclusion that You can't get it from them.

Patrick D
06-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Never seen 2 FP slot on sapphire and emerald. I came to conclusion that You can't get it from them.

Oh you could very well be right about that, I don't have much data on sapphires and emeralds anyway because I tend to avoid them.

RAUKO
06-11-2010, 06:26 PM
Meh... I attack sapphires from time to time. More to get Armour for Nth forcefield than in hope of FP drop.

Emeralds - I think I got 1 FP or 2(?) and I killed them PLENTY. Maybe 0? Don't remember - was a long time ago. They suck.

RAUKO
06-11-2010, 06:30 PM
Has anyone noticed any change on Serpent FP drop rate?
Until couple of days ago Serpent drops were nice, but for example
during last 24 hours my results from 12 Ancient Serpents were:
2x 1FP and 10x 0FP. Damage always between 500,000 and 2,000,000.
Could be of course extremely bad luck, but...

If I had a FP every time somebody (me included) perceived a drop in drops - I would have all Epic Generals by now :D

It is absolutely normal. Bad luck. Next round will be better. :)

Patrick D
06-11-2010, 06:32 PM
2 FP out of 12 ancients isn't great, but still within 2 standard deviations of the mean I believe. A number of 12 is statistically not very interesting yet, try keeping track of at least 50 and then we can start crunching some numbers. :)

jdavis6
06-12-2010, 03:33 AM
Is there an easy way to show how many PA's you've done on the monster without keeping track of it manually on paper?

Take your damage and divide by your current non critical, non assisted damage per power hit.

The value for your PA should remain close to constant over a single monster - yes changing from a weak general to a strong general will affect it, as will adding to attack, but if your within 100-200 points I wouldn't worry about it.


Singles and crits will also affect the number you get, but as long as your in the ballpark you should see the expected fp return over the course of several dragons.

Maguita
06-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Today, in a Red Dragon:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a123/MagaDeOz/4FP.jpg

30 PAs (using Vanquish)

Maguita
216,208 dmg

|m/:D|m/

I started testing the 20 PA and never got more than 2 FPs, 2 FPs is very nice :P, but the more, the better :P

Doiron
06-13-2010, 02:10 AM
based on confidence interval of 95% and 500 battles. there is a correlation of -.012 on hp and 2FP slot chance. I would catch any other correlation on the table over 0.300.

a correlation value is doesn't show anything if there's no variation in the data. That is to say, 500 battles of what? If they're all clustered around a certain damage total, then computing a correlation doesn't mean anything. And are those 500 battles of serpents? different kinds? Given a 15% conversion rate, 500 battles means 75 conversions, which is hardly enough for good statistical significance.

Dave O
06-13-2010, 04:23 AM
Given a 15% conversion rate, 500 battles means 75 conversions, which is hardly enough for good statistical significance.

It isn't? How large a sample does one need for something like this? Seems that 500 samples should be enough to correlate a 15% chance; and 75 samples should be plenty to correlate a 50% chance ... but then I am not a statistician.

Doiron
06-13-2010, 06:02 AM
depends on what you're measuring.

if you're measuring the conversion rate, 500 samples at p = 15% is +/- 3% at a 95% confidence interval; so there's a 95% chance the actual conversion rate is anywhere from 12-18%.

If you're talking about the 50-50 chance from favor points, based off of 75 conversions, p = 50% is +/- 11% at 95% confidence interval; or there's a 95% chance that the actual rate is anywhere from 39-61%.

Additionally, this all assumes a normal distribution of your data; which this is most likely not. If I got 75 conversions and they were all in the 450-550k damage range then any calculation would only be valid for that damage range. I.e. you wouldn't be able to reliably say anything about doing 150k damage or 1mil damage. So unless you know what data the calculations come from, you have to be careful about what you say.

Dave O
06-13-2010, 07:40 AM
depends on what you're measuring.

if you're measuring the conversion rate, 500 samples at p = 15% is +/- 3% at a 95% confidence interval; so there's a 95% chance the actual conversion rate is anywhere from 12-18%.

If you're talking about the 50-50 chance from favor points, based off of 75 conversions, p = 50% is +/- 11% at 95% confidence interval; or there's a 95% chance that the actual rate is anywhere from 39-61%.

Additionally, this all assumes a normal distribution of your data; which this is most likely not. If I got 75 conversions and they were all in the 450-550k damage range then any calculation would only be valid for that damage range. I.e. you wouldn't be able to reliably say anything about doing 150k damage or 1mil damage. So unless you know what data the calculations come from, you have to be careful about what you say.

ok -- those numbers seem to make sense. I guess I just have a broader scope of things. 12-18% is close enough to 15% for my needs. 39-61% is a bit more spread than I would have thought; so agree that more data is probably needed, but still close enough for ballpark figures.

Agree totally with the damage dealt / stamina used -- those do make a lot of difference in the number of demi-slots that are available.

Thanks Doiron.

Chepmaster
06-13-2010, 08:00 AM
A great discussion guys but wouldn't it be better for a serpent hunter to do more than 300K dmg especially to amethyst you can easily reach to 5-6 demi slots for 600K dmg and get greater chance for fps.

Doiron
06-13-2010, 03:37 PM
A great discussion guys but wouldn't it be better for a serpent hunter to do more than 300K dmg especially to amethyst you can easily reach to 5-6 demi slots for 600K dmg and get greater chance for fps.

the sweet spots vary by serpent and are hard to pin down exactly. but for an amethyst, I'd say 300-325k is close enough to optimal to serve as a good guide; that'd get you 3.5 demi slots on average by my data. I'd advise against going lower than 250k, as it really drops off.

Doiron
06-14-2010, 05:00 AM
amethyst demi slots are different from ancient slots. you can see that amethyst demislots never go above 3 demi points. and ancient slots never go above 5. red dragons never go above 7.


you're talking demi points per slot, I was talking average number of demi slots per monster for a given damage.

emeralds > sapphire > amethyst > ancient

so for say 300k damage, you're likely to get slightly over 4 slots on an emerald, but slightly over 3 for an ancient. but the conversion of those slots to FP goes the opposite direction in a big way which overshadows the demi slot preference.

you're right about the demi points, but it's not really relevant.

lunatictokyo
06-15-2010, 04:37 PM
someone in my posted this ..

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs640.snc3/32099_134143829929930_100000029405912_377808_56413 75_n.jpg

she is level 412 or 413

apparantly she got it from doing the following damage/fortity

590,173 dmg / 6,403 def

x3froggi
06-17-2010, 06:47 AM
someone in my posted this ..

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs640.snc3/32099_134143829929930_100000029405912_377808_56413 75_n.jpg

she is level 412 or 413

apparantly she got it from doing the following damage/fortity

590,173 dmg / 6,403 def

Looks like i'd be better off dealing 400k damage and 200k defence not using barbarus. Did 847,793 dmg / 427,990 def and got no favour points.

Doiron
06-17-2010, 04:01 PM
Looks like i'd be better off dealing 400k damage and 200k defence not using barbarus. Did 847,793 dmg / 427,990 def and got no favour points.

barb is great for serpents. you can't base a strategy off a couple fights. but ya, your total output is a bit high if you're going for FPs.

Rutherford
06-17-2010, 07:41 PM
red alert

the last 100 slots from red serpents have rendered 8FP slots

thats a 95% confidence that the chances have been decreased to atleast 0.13 return, 0.08 average

if this is the case, its time to quit ca

1. You aren't doing random sampling.

2. You're still in ±10% error rate land with the sample size.

Doiron
06-17-2010, 08:23 PM
95% confidence the new rate of FP slots is 2.68% to 13.32%, probably 8%

This is only over the last 100 slots.
My total data collection is about 3,000 slots.
The moving average of the graph shows a sharp downward spike in the last 100.

you should really listen to rutherford. the only thing you have had is a string of bad luck. my data over the last 100 slots shows 20%, for example (since the last update). that doesn't mean that they changed the rate, it just means I got a little lucky. it's still well within the 95% confidence interval.

Rutherford
06-17-2010, 08:38 PM
95% confidence the new rate of FP slots is 2.68% to 13.32%, probably 8%

This is only over the last 100 slots.
My total data collection is about 3,000 slots.
The moving average of the graph shows a sharp downward spike in the last 100.

Go kick your stats teacher in the face. They didn't do a good job.

Patrick D
06-17-2010, 08:40 PM
95% confidence the new rate of FP slots is 2.68% to 13.32%, probably 8%

This is only over the last 100 slots.
My total data collection is about 3,000 slots.
The moving average of the graph shows a sharp downward spike in the last 100.

100 slots is way too small a sample, it doesn´t matter that it lies outside the 95% confidence interval. It´s like throwing dice and then at the moment you get two times 6 in a row you start yelling that the chance to throw a 6 has changed because it lies outside the 95% confidence interval (the chance for throwing a 6 twice in a row is ~0.028).

NSDungeon
06-18-2010, 03:35 AM
Quote "ORC KING and BARBARUS will give you LESS LOOT on dragons than normal 5 stamina PAs." I've heard this one some other occasions but I'm really curious about the proof and if it's like he said only for dragons or is this rule valid for all monsters. I don't know it doesn't do much sense I know that the devs could've made a mistake but still - It's not like they can't fix it :D

P.S - What about the not so recenlty added 10/20/50 Stamina cost attacks ?

ODragon
06-18-2010, 03:41 AM
P.S - What about the not so recenlty added 10/20/50 Stamina cost attacks ?
They aren't available on dragons/serpents.

NSDungeon
06-18-2010, 03:54 AM
Yes, I know that those are there only for Alpha Bahamut, Bahamut, Genesis, Ragnarok, and Skaar and not even all X Stamina attacks are there for the Bahamuts for example but I'm talking about the Loot gained in general that's way I wrote "I'm really curious about the proof and if it's like he said only for dragons or is this rule valid for all monsters" In a way one 10x Stamina Attack is very similar to a low level Orc King and Barbarus and a 20x equals Orc King again.
P.S - Making a 50x Stamina Attack with Orc King equiped on a Genesis with a Full Plateau City's Defense and max cap Attack sure must be fun to look at it : P~

Patrick D
06-18-2010, 10:28 AM
Quote "ORC KING and BARBARUS will give you LESS LOOT on dragons than normal 5 stamina PAs." I've heard this one some other occasions but I'm really curious about the proof and if it's like he said only for dragons or is this rule valid for all monsters.

The sample size used here for the proof is way too small to say anything conclusive about this. Barbarus hasn't even been tested at all afaik. I think it's just a myth, I use Barbarus all the time on dragons and for the past 500-600 dragons or so I get the same as I was getting with the other generals.

Maguita
06-20-2010, 12:23 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4731771&l=0fa20ffda1&id=634596268

20 PAs = 631,368 dmg / 0 def. Using Kaylen and i got 4 FPs!

Does this mean that i should switch to serpents xD? If i can get this using less stamina i will switch to serpents xD. Or i was just lucky? :P

Splarticus
06-20-2010, 01:00 PM
I tend to believe Cloudzero - that the Serpent FP drop rate has been nerfed. Two reasons:

Cloudzero seems to have his stats down. The 50% data ratio is correct, and has been corroborated by others. So has the 15% demi-slot to FP ratio for Ancient Serpents. 100 data points is sufficient to conclude that there has been a change, especially when that change is as significant as he claims.

My guess would be that the drop rate for Ancient FPs has been halved from 15% of demi-slots to 7.5%, or if he's correct the actual drop was 1.667%, then made 0.83%. Simple math, and seems to fit his statistics.

The other reason is game balance. The drop for dragons is 0.0056 FP / stamina point at 30 PAs/dragon. With 1000 stamina, that means you get about 6 FP. If you got more than 10 FP for using 1000 stamina on serpents, then you could continually buy refills, use the stamina on serpents, get enough points to buy another refill, and repeat as long as you have more serpents to kill. Previously, Cloudzero was getting 61 stamina/FP, that means he gets 16 FP for 1000 stamina. If he could find enough Ancient Serpents, he could refill and kill serpents as long as he could find enough strength in his fingers to keep on clicking!

Previously it would have been hard to find enough serpents, but the numbers for FP are getting well known, and now we have two awesome groups dedicated to farming FPs. It's getting easier, so they had to nerf the drop rate.

Splarticus
06-20-2010, 01:27 PM
By the way, I thought I would verify the exp returns per stamina point, including the benefits of FP, assuming they're used for refills.

Here's what I get for red dragons:

XP/sta = 2.8 + (0.56% * 1000 /10) * xp/sta

This ignores the Energy Potion impact, which is pretty negligible in comparison to the FP.

Solving for xp/stamina means dragons effectively give 6.36 xp per stamina point if you have 1000 stamina and use them for stamina refills.

Serpents are even better:

Assuming Serp direct xp return per stamina is 2.1 (Anyone know the actual figure?), and a return of only 0.008 FP per stamina point, as Cloudzero says is the new number.

XP/sta = 2.1 + (0.008 * 1000 /10) * xp/sta

Solving for Xp/sta gives 10.5 xp per stamina for farming serpents!

Cloudzero, can I ask what your attack is, that you're hitting for an average of about 30k per attack?

x3froggi
06-20-2010, 01:32 PM
Well they had to drop the amount gotten below the amount refill, or they would be doing a losing buisness wouldn't they :D

EpiQC
06-20-2010, 03:02 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4731771&l=0fa20ffda1&id=634596268

20 PAs = 631,368 dmg / 0 def. Using Kaylen and i got 4 FPs!

Does this mean that i should switch to serpents xD? If i can get this using less stamina i will switch to serpents xD. Or i was just lucky? :P
Yes. If you can do more than 500k with 20 PAs, serpents are better.

x3froggi
06-20-2010, 03:05 PM
What if i deal 900k Damage and 400k fortification. will it be more than 4 FPs? What if i dno't use barbarus.

EpiQC
06-20-2010, 03:11 PM
What if i deal 900k Damage and 400k fortification. will it be more than 4 FPs? What if i dno't use barbarus.
Then spread it on 3 different amethyst serpents. It doesn't matter if you use barbarus or not, they're damage-based.

Maguita
06-20-2010, 03:15 PM
Yes. If you can do more than 500k with 20 PAs, serpents are better.

Thank You! :D

Doiron
06-20-2010, 03:17 PM
I tend to believe Cloudzero - that the Serpent FP drop rate has been nerfed. Two reasons:

Cloudzero seems to have his stats down. The 50% data ratio is correct, and has been corroborated by others. So has the 15% demi-slot to FP ratio for Ancient Serpents. 100 data points is sufficient to conclude that there has been a change, especially when that change is as significant as he claims.

The other reason is game balance. The drop for dragons is 0.0056 FP / stamina point at 30 PAs/dragon. With 1000 stamina, that means you get about 6 FP. If you got more than 10 FP for using 1000 stamina on serpents, then you could continually buy refills, use the stamina on serpents, get enough points to buy another refill, and repeat as long as you have more serpents to kill. Previously, Cloudzero was getting 61 stamina/FP, that means he gets 16 FP for 1000 stamina. If he could find enough Ancient Serpents, he could refill and kill serpents as long as he could find enough strength in his fingers to keep on clicking!


your reasons are bunk.
#1: he got those figures from someone else
#2: speculation doesn't make it true

read the rest of the thread to understand why his numbers don't mean anything. but the short answer is that at 100 samples, with a 15% conversion rate, you have a 95% chance of the rate being between 8% and 22%. In other words, 100 is way too small to say there's been a change ESPECIALLY with other people presenting contradictory evidence.

Myself and others have been farming serpents for FP and it is as good as it seems. The only problem is finding enough ancients to sustain throughput; which is no easy feat even with two dedicated FP groups.

to Maguita: 4 FP for 630k isn't unusual, but it certainly doesn't happen every time.

Maguita
06-20-2010, 03:22 PM
to Maguita: 4 FP for 630k isn't unusual, but it certainly doesn't happen every time.

Thank You. I´m going to kill serpents this week to see what happen :P

Patrick D
06-20-2010, 03:42 PM
I tend to believe Cloudzero - that the Serpent FP drop rate has been nerfed. Two reasons:

Cloudzero seems to have his stats down. The 50% data ratio is correct, and has been corroborated by others. So has the 15% demi-slot to FP ratio for Ancient Serpents. 100 data points is sufficient to conclude that there has been a change, especially when that change is as significant as he claims.

Maybe you should study some statistics first. 100 'random' data points is barely sufficient to conclude anything, but in cloudzero's case the data points are not even randomly chosen so you can't conclude anything based on a 95% confidence interval. It's like I said earlier, if you throw dice long enough, there will always come a time where you will see an unexpectedly large number of sixes within a batch of 100 throws. Even if the number lies outside the 95% confidence interval it will still happen sometimes (less than 1 out 20 batches of 100 throws actually).

Look at it this way. Let's assume there is only a 3% chance a batch of 100 data points nets you only 8 FP (assuming a 15% conversion rate). You get 8 FP and this leads you to the conclusion they must have nerfed serpents since it lies outside the 95% confidence interval. However, Cloudzero has been taking 30 batches of 100 data points already (he said he has data from 3000 slots total), so what do you think the chance is now that one of those batches show the results Cloudzero had been getting? Yes indeed, a whole lot more than only 3%, it would be pretty close to 50% even.

Chepmaster
06-20-2010, 05:40 PM
Please when you're making statements about serpents and dragons being nerfed or not being nerfed USE ONLY DATA GATHERED AFTER the certain game update and do not mix it with the previously gathered data because this way we can't tell of a possible nerfing!!!!!!!!

Patrick D
06-20-2010, 07:36 PM
do you know the conversion rate for amethyst? with how many samples?

62 FP slots out of 629 demi slots, so about 10% conversion rate. I think I have mentioned this number before in this thread or another.

x3froggi
06-21-2010, 01:41 AM
Btw guys, i just pummelled 1.4m damage and 800k fortification into an Amthyst serpent. I'll tell you guys if i get any FPs. What are your predictions? O:

Nevermind. It died. No favour points. 2 demi slots.

Splarticus
06-21-2010, 03:36 AM
For dragons, because the damage done is irrelevant compared to the stamina spent, I would say there are two approaches to choosing your general.

1. Go for demi-points bonus with Angelica or similar
2. Go for an increased critical general. It has previously been reported that a critical attack counts as two PAs. Not sure how that has been confirmed.

By the way, cloudzero, Skaar does have +1% critical if you have his Deathrune Hellplate armor. It's an item bonus. What's the normal critical rate, and how do generals with bonuses affect that?

For serpents, since damage does count, the best general for someone with high attack would again be a increase criticals general, since the impact of criticals would be greater than a few additional attack or defense points.

tyrion
06-21-2010, 04:48 AM
just wanted to say thanks, that's a bunch of valuable information in this thread even if some of it hasn't been completely confirmed. as pvp'er i learned a lot to put my limited stamina (close to 200) to more efficient use when i am going for FP's.

Gethsemenerose
06-21-2010, 05:10 AM
Was wondering if anyone has confirmed if Nautica does extra Criticals on Serpents... (so far I have seen at least 4 crits on 25 PA on my last 7 serpents 3 ancient 4 amythysts) that seems a very high to me...

Fosk8
06-21-2010, 04:40 PM
when you say like 30 PA on a dragon, does this work also with Barbarus and the Orc King? since they do power attack x3 and x5...

thanks

brightjoey
06-21-2010, 06:19 PM
Kudos to this thread! Im loving it!

RavenHQ
06-21-2010, 10:36 PM
So single stamina attacks don't cound on Dragons? o.O

MicheleFG
06-21-2010, 10:56 PM
How do you know that the lot is based on the number of PA?
How can you be sure that it is not damage based? Most of the things in CA (awards, medals) are based on damage and not on # of PA.
Have you done a test with (at least) 2 players with very different attack which after, let say, 100 dragons (10% error) had roughly the same lot?
Could you share the data?
In case I can provide the lots of my 200 kills (I have 380 att/13 def) to be compared with someone with much smaller or hight att/def.

EpiQC
06-21-2010, 10:58 PM
ALL data we have support the fact that dragons are stamina based. Try doing 100k damage with 1 attack. Now try with 1.5k attack. You get less loot.

MicheleFG
06-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Well, I cannot try but with my stats and I have 0.49(+-0.06)FP/100ST for red dragons and 0.43+-0.10 for gold. I see that there is people here with more than 1000 ATT, do they have the same outcame?

MicheleFG
06-22-2010, 04:14 PM
So, is there any data available?

MicheleFG
06-23-2010, 11:21 PM
we wouldnt be stupid enough to waste 150sta on red dragons if we have 1000att. we hunt red serpents that are damage based.

How can you say so if nobody proved that? I asked for a proof and the only thing I ear is "that is so" which is not a proof. I have 380 att, if dmg is not an issue than someone with 1 att and possible no equipment should be able to prove your theory by having a similar FP/STM return to the one I gave.

RAUKO
06-24-2010, 12:02 AM
How can you say so if nobody proved that? I asked for a proof and the only thing I ear is "that is so" which is not a proof. I have 380 att, if dmg is not an issue than someone with 1 att and possible no equipment should be able to prove your theory by having a similar FP/STM return to the one I gave.

Listen. Every day new player turns up and gets surprised by that FACT. It is very, very, very boring.

Then He/She asks for proof and data and wonders did anyone did experiments. And again - it is very boring. Search the forum.

Whatever idea crosses Your mind to prove it - it has been done. Oh, so many times. What You suggested is stale and old and done looong ago. Believe me You are not the first - it is so repetitive.

It is like that. Please don't water down serious thread by doubting data that even n00bs know by now. You lead this topic months back in time.

20 NP

Ioannis
06-24-2010, 04:33 PM
If u ask for proof and u get an answer that u dont like or u dont want to believe a great number of players, its ur choice

U can always test it urself. If again u dont want to test it urself and u seek some players that have done it so and yet u dont believe those players, its ur choice

If u choose to discard any info they provide its ur choice

UNLESS u have any proof otherwise, just take their word for it and the word of hundrends of players that do follow this tactic


We are not here to convice u, but to educate and answer any questions u have.


To anyone that finds this post relative

Patrick D
06-24-2010, 05:46 PM
How can you say so if nobody proved that? I asked for a proof and the only thing I ear is "that is so" which is not a proof. I have 380 att, if dmg is not an issue than someone with 1 att and possible no equipment should be able to prove your theory by having a similar FP/STM return to the one I gave.

Sigh... it's not a theory, it's a fact. It's been done and proven before, and also verified by me and by many others. Yes, I've been at 1 att and got the same FP/STA return back then as I'm getting now with 900+ attack. There's no need to reinvent the wheel every single time.

Lord Dufduf
06-24-2010, 06:19 PM
Sigh... it's not a theory, it's a fact. It's been done and proven before, and also verified by me and by many others. Yes, I've been at 1 att and got the same FP/STA return back then as I'm getting now with 900+ attack. There's no need to reinvent the wheel every single time.

Yeah you did Patrick. You set me straight in the original 300 rule. lol. At the time I wasn't too sure if stamina based, damage based was absolutely true yet.

I found it hard to believe you could whack this thing and do 907 damage each hit and farm FPs. Well know we know.

Edit:
I think your attack was actually 10 at the time. I think.

EagleOtto
06-24-2010, 11:00 PM
Any tests done with Morrigan (Chance +Extra Demi Points)

Does this give a chance to open another demi slot, or does it only change 1 demi -> 2 demi points.

I'm wondering if this would allow you to do lesser damage and have better chances for FP.

Or do you think this would lessen the chances for FP as it could turn a FP back into an extra Demi slot?

Just wondering, i've never seen that topic talked about.

Dave O
06-24-2010, 11:56 PM
Any tests done with Morrigan (Chance +Extra Demi Points)

Does this give a chance to open another demi slot, or does it only change 1 demi -> 2 demi points.

I'm wondering if this would allow you to do lesser damage and have better chances for FP.

Or do you think this would lessen the chances for FP as it could turn a FP back into an extra Demi slot?

Just wondering, i've never seen that topic talked about.

I use Morrigan all the time. I do not think she affects the number of demi-slots or Favor Points; rather if you are awarded a demi-point, she gives you a small chance of getting an extra one. The extra demi-points that are awarded due to the equipped general are reported in a separate line following the normal rewards for slaying the monster (or following the battle results if used awarded during combat).

Chepmaster
06-26-2010, 12:54 AM
Ok I'm making some observations and I'll be really thankfull if someone who is SURE of it can answer me.Please noobs do not give your suggestions,answer only if you're completely sure!
My question is: Do you think time taken to kill a serpent as well as the fortification bar being full affects the number of demi slots you get???I'm asking this because I'm getting extremely random results on serpents-5 slots for 500 on Ren and 3 slots for 700 on Red again...any explanation or is it completely random again?

RAUKO
06-26-2010, 05:55 AM
Ok I'm making some observations and I'll be really thankfull if someone who is SURE of it can answer me.Please noobs do not give your suggestions,answer only if you're completely sure!
My question is: Do you think time taken to kill a serpent as well as the fortification bar being full affects the number of demi slots you get???I'm asking this because I'm getting extremely random results on serpents-5 slots for 500 on Ren and 3 slots for 700 on Red again...any explanation or is it completely random again?

Time - not a factor.
Blue bar - not a factor.

Dmg+fort and RND.

GoddessIMHO
06-26-2010, 06:54 AM
This is a great string. Very interesting. What I like the best is people putting in their formulas, people responding with other formulas. All the back and forth about how statistics work and what makes one valid and another one not valid. Each argument about the 'subject' and not about just attacking the 'person' you disagree with.

This would be a great way to teach statistics to kids.

Micheal Knight
07-11-2010, 04:04 AM
Guide has been updated.

I'm still missing some info, but I wanted to get the word out for sweet spots as soon as possible to save people from wasting energy and stamina.

myrthr
07-11-2010, 06:44 AM
Not fp related and somewhat random... but I feel i must thank the OP for enlightening me on the proper way of peeling bananas. I can't believe I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'm going out to buy a banana now.

Sethala
07-12-2010, 12:00 AM
A question on those sweet spots...

Is it a hard cutoff? i.e. if I do 29 power attacks on a dragon, will it be any better than 20 PAs? Same with serpents; is it worth doing 250k to an ancient serpent, or should I not bother if I can't get past 270k?

Doiron
07-12-2010, 12:06 AM
cutoffs are very hard.
I haven't investigated on the dragon end of things, but for serpents if you can't make the cutoff there's not much point in continuing to hit.

penco
07-12-2010, 12:18 AM
cutoffs are very hard.
I haven't investigated on the dragon end of things, but for serpents if you can't make the cutoff there's not much point in continuing to hit.

That's why, in organized groups at least, people ought to stop before the kill and fortify. Using 1 stam attacks helps to drain the blue bar, too.

Micheal Knight
07-14-2010, 06:01 PM
Looks like the guide is almost done, running out of things to add.

Could someone inform me of the base critical chance for monsters?

Is it 5/10/15% ?

I'm not in a big hurry to waste stamina testing outliner data for Amethysts, but I'll get along to it shortly.

Does anyone feel the guide is missing something? Any additions?

Skarr falls into about the same place as Emeralds and Sapphires for fp farming (1 Fp per slot max) So further info on him isn't worthwhile.

Doiron
07-14-2010, 07:40 PM
base crit is 10%

x3froggi
07-19-2010, 09:26 AM
Does dragons actually give good favour points rate -______-" For 30 PAs. Can you say base on your experience? I've gotten 3 the most. Heard people got 6 or 8. I only got 6 from Ancient sea. Considering whether i should completely stop farming dragons and stick to serpents.

Jedius
08-04-2010, 12:48 AM
Why is Barbaras/Orc King good to use? How exactly do they work better than a normal general would for serpents?

Also, on "Countdown" it is saying the sweet spot for an ancient is 234k, while I believe it says 270k in this guide...which is correct?

Doiron
08-04-2010, 01:33 AM
Why is Barbaras/Orc King good to use? How exactly do they work better than a normal general would for serpents?

Also, on "Countdown" it is saying the sweet spot for an ancient is 234k, while I believe it says 270k in this guide...which is correct?

Barbie/OK reduce the amount of damage to the defense bar when you attack

the 270k number is old and based on sketchy data, the 234k is new and exact.

Jedius
08-04-2010, 01:49 AM
Thanks for the reply. Makes sense.

Probably works for crits too? Like instead of getting lucky on 1 regular crit and regular dmg on other 2 hits, you would get basically like crit dmg x3 (like you would have crit on all 3 regular hits)on a Barbaras crit?

hamdi
08-05-2010, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the guide. Got 2 fp on my 1st try with an Amethyst Serpent. Am trying with a 2nd one now. :)

Micheal Knight
08-05-2010, 11:41 AM
the 270k number is old and based on sketchy data, the 234k is new and exact.

The data wasn't sketchy, just incomplete. I decided not to steal your data for my guide. Having completed more tests I can confirm anything barely above 240k works, along with 160k for amethysts. I'll continue to tweak data for fp hunting as the months go by, but I thank you for taking a special look into serpents.

Also....

UPDATE!!

Serpent Attack and Defense Formulas! (WiP)

I've retired from Castle Age (8/6/2010) this will be the final update, but I encourage you to continue to gather information and optimize the Fp hunting experience, best wishes to you all.

David
08-20-2010, 12:16 AM
This is probably way off topic, but why do you spell your name Micheal?

Chepmaster
08-20-2010, 05:28 AM
Thanks to our beloved developers,your guide is now completely useless :D

Poobah
08-25-2010, 12:57 AM
Looks like the guide is almost done, running out of things to add.


Belay my last. It's been a long day. For some reason I was thinking Titania gave you a better chance at getting a FP upgrade in a demi slot...not sure why that was stuck in my head.

EpiQC
08-25-2010, 01:36 AM
Might mention doing a Titania swap-in before hitting the Collect Rewards button...
? Read her ability again.

Micheal Knight
08-25-2010, 05:55 PM
This is probably way off topic, but why do you spell your name Micheal?

Why do you spell your name David?



Thanks to our beloved developers,your guide is now completely useless

The only thing that has changed is conversion rates, the guide is still useful for everything else.

Conversion rates will affect optimal damage to switch from dragons to serpents, and of course your expected Fp Haul, but thats all.

30PA still works for Dragons, 240k for Red Serpents.

I expect with current data that the new optimal damage to switch from Dragons to Serpents is 16k, and you can see how much attack you need for this in the Atk Formula section. Which will continue to be updated as my source increases their stats.

================================

As for an expected date with updated Conversion rates and data..

Around September 1st, depending on factors. It was brought to my attention that this guide might be the reason behind the nerf in the first place, so we'll see what happens.

Micheal Knight
08-27-2010, 12:24 PM
Alright the guide has been updated with some working info for now.

The conversion rates will not be confirmed until September. However, I gave everyone something to work with.

CLB
08-27-2010, 07:52 PM
Several people have asked question about Orc King / Barbarus, but none have gotten the answer I've been looking for.

Does 30PA's mean 150 Stamina or is number of PA's the important part ?

In other words, will 10 Barbarus 3x PA's give me the same results as 30 PA's from another general ?

Clicking Power Attack for 5 Stamina gets a little tedious.

Micheal Knight
08-27-2010, 09:19 PM
Several people have asked question about Orc King / Barbarus, but none have gotten the answer I've been looking for.

Does 30PA's mean 150 Stamina or is number of PA's the important part ?

In other words, will 10 Barbarus 3x PA's give me the same results as 30 PA's from another general ?

Clicking Power Attack for 5 Stamina gets a little tedious.

30 Power Attacks = 150 stamina, 28 (new) = 140 stamina. For dragons its what the reward is based on, not damage.

10 PA with Barbarus will give you 30 PA damage. (150 Stamina)

As for if it's best, surprisingly this still hasn't been tested in depth. Some results show that there is a glitch and Orc King/Barbarius on dragons will reward fewer DemiSlots, while others swear it's the same as normal.

I personally will conduct a test to confirm or deny it at some point in the future, but until then, I suggest you try it out and see what works for you, if you don't like clicking 30 times, don't.

The debate only refers to Dragons, since they are stamina based. Barbarius is 100% fine on serpents both for hits, and fortify. However, again, for dragons there are mixed results, and some report fewer demi slots while others say it's fine. So until someone steps forward with a heavy set of reliable results, you'll just have to pick a side.

I hope that answers your question,

Craziivan
08-28-2010, 12:20 AM
at the moment it looks quite confusing because of mixed old and new information
maybe you could differentiate more with colors or quote boxes to make clear which information is invalid for the moment

Micheal Knight
08-28-2010, 03:41 AM
Updated Guide to be more neat, as per suggestions.


CLB, stay tuned to this thread throughout the week.

Countdown will be conducting Barb/OK dragon testing this weekend.


This is NEW data, and will most likely confirm what the OLD data has already shown us.

Which is... Barb/OK do in fact reward fewer demi slots on Dragons. A known glitch. This information was originally in the Countdown Fp Guide however, too many debates sprung up so I decided to remove it to end some of the arguments.

This weekend, we'll collect enough data to confirm Barb/OK do in fact reward 1 less slot than slugging through the 28 PA clicks.

Most interesting, I've actually changed my opinion after seeing the new data. According to new tests, Barbarius has no effect. Will go in detail in Guide.

Craziivan
09-04-2010, 01:53 PM
have you ever tried to find out if the summoner level of the serpent has an effect on how much dmg is needed to unlock slots?
maybe you can see that in data already collected if you wrote down summoner levels

Micheal Knight
09-04-2010, 09:35 PM
Slot Unlocks are constant, just like Fp Conversion, summoner level, speed kills do not change them.

Patrick D
09-15-2010, 12:51 PM
I think it's best not to make any guide about FP drops anymore, once we get it down to optimal the devs will come out and nerf the drops. The past weeks I have farmed 107 FP out of 315 ancient serpents at optimal damage, that's 0.34 FP/serpent. I used to get double the amount of FP: 0.68 FP/serpent. That would be ~214 FP from 315 ancients. That's 10-11 FP refills down the drain for me...

Dave O
09-15-2010, 03:43 PM
hmmm ... seems they don't want you playing if you ain't paying....

Micheal Knight
09-15-2010, 09:25 PM
Hmm Rauko's post got removed, I read it this morning but I haven't had the time to comment until now.

======================

I understand there is some concern for the guide. Let me share my thoughts.

======================

It's important to keep this guide, even if the devs want to nerf free fp more and more. Why?

To begin with, this guide is for new players and old players alike. When you first started, you didn't know how to hunt Fp. You came to the forum or asked around "How can I get more Fp?"

Before this guide, that knowledge was a tightly held secret, to the point of being quite annoying for a new player.

I'd come to the Getting Started forum and never get a straight answer. "Fight dragons" that's all I'd get. No stat builds, no optimal methods, just "Fight Dragons"

Thanks to this guide, a new player can see "Oh I can stop at 28PA, I don't have to hit further since the extra is just wasted effort."

====

The same goes for serpents, before this guide it was common practice to just hit for 500k - 600k it was good enough.

Thanks to Serpents Fp and You, and Countdown, we now know 235k combined is really enough with 470k being overboard if you can't find more serpents. Imagine all the extra En/Sta saved.


===

Fp drops were nerfed in the middle of Arena II. They've pretty much cut the drop rates in half. Was that the fault of sharing farming information?

I don't think so. I think that was the fault of the devs solution for Arena Tokens. Before the nerf, it was easier to farm FP than farm Arena Tokens.

So they hastily nerfed it. If anything it was probably everyone talking about how the best way to handle Arena II is to just farm FP then blow it all at the end instead of bothering with Tokens.

===

Fp drops have been cut in half. That's a fact, we're stuck with it. They probably won't change them back.

Sweet spots for demi slots are still the same.

You can look at this optimistically two ways:

All the time spent before August we had a "Double Fp Rates" marathon. Old players benefit from this, it was alot easier to powerlevel back in May than it is now. Older players have a big head start on newer players, new players will have a much harder time catching up to the older players.

Most facebook games only give you 1 Fp per level up. Getting 2-4Fp a day is incredible at high levels.

Castle age, you get FP with monsters, at level 1000, you can pull out 18Fp in a single level, and as you grow stronger you'll earn even more.

If you think of it that way, the Fp Nerf was the shifting of CA toward it's player base.

Instead of us being in the 90s-180s we're in the 280s+ we're stronger now.

We don't cap out at 20 dragons a day, we can handle 60-100~ given the resources. This is CA's way of balancing the playing field. They are keeping levels slow, and keeping the majority in a certain range to slow the power creep.

===

I might of got abit off topic with all that, but the TLDR is:
I don't believe this guide was the cause of CA's Fp Nerf.
This guide is needed to educate new players.
I will continue to update this guide with anything Fp related.


As for future updates, there isn't much else to say, I added Skarr, but Skarr isn't ideal for Fp Farming, just as a supplemental boost. The only thing left is to continue Atk/Def formulas to say... 1000/1000 and hopefully get David's/Orlando's/or Pegasus's 5000?/5000? mega stats to show extraordinary results.

1000 atk is 34k
2000 atk is 37k
will 5000 atk be 47k? (One Orc King hit for optimal damage [235k] )

ucdPolarBear
09-15-2010, 09:56 PM
Thank you Micheal. This guide has been great and very helpful when I first started.

RAUKO
09-16-2010, 10:13 PM
I removed the post, because I think there is no point to debate FP drops on forum any more. It proved to be contra-productive.

Nice guide, though :)
Over & out ;)

Stwes
09-21-2010, 03:55 PM
Does a crit with Barbarus count as 3 against dragons, like everyone else, or 9 because he is using 3x the amount?

Micheal Knight
09-22-2010, 03:02 AM
Does a crit with Barbarus count as 3 against dragons, like everyone else, or 9 because he is using 3x the amount?

Critical's don't effect PA for dragons, so Barb is 3 PA crit or not, i'll try to detail this better in the guide, seems this question has been asked multiple times.

Thanks,

labalaba
09-22-2010, 03:32 AM
Critical's don't effect PA for dragons, so Barb is 3 PA crit or not, i'll try to detail this better in the guide, seems this question has been asked multiple times.

Thanks,

The neutral way to measure is comparing it to normal damage/PA.
Barbarus crit is not 9x but can be at least worth 5x normal-PA @level-4,
afaik critical modifier is random not a fixed 3x, rather 1.5/2/2.5/3x.
Yes, there's .5 so you can end up adding 1-stam attacks to round things.

Stwes
09-22-2010, 04:16 AM
Critical's don't effect PA for dragons, so Barb is 3 PA crit or not, i'll try to detail this better in the guide, seems this question has been asked multiple times.

Thanks,

The castle age wiki states that a crit counts for 3 hits on a dragon. So, i was just curious if Barbarus tripled that, I understand that damage has no value.

BajanRake
09-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Kevin
848 dmg / 586,611 def

You step through the portal.....
You have been awarded 1 Favor Points!
You have been rewarded 1 demi points of Azeron!
You have been awarded 1 Favor Points!
You have been rewarded 1 demi points of Corvintheus!
You have been awarded with: Rusty Gloves! [attack: 1 defense: 1]
You have been awarded with: Rusty Armor! [attack: 2 defense: 3]
You have been awarded with: Rusty Gloves! [attack: 1 defense: 1]
You have been awarded with: Hands of Darkness! [attack: 5 defense: 4]
You have been awarded with: Hellkite Minion! [attack: 32 defense: 27]
You have been awarded with: Arcanist! [attack: 23 defense: 20]
You have been awarded with: Mountain Keep!
You have been awarded with: Marketplace!
You have been awarded with: Hellslayer Knight! [attack: 29 defense: 33]

Kevin honors their Guild, The Castle Age Lycans, by achieving victory against Skaar Deathrune and earning 1,418 Monster Rank Points!

2 FP for 500k Defense = 100% Win!

Patrick D
09-22-2010, 02:03 PM
The neutral way to measure is comparing it to normal damage/PA.
Barbarus crit is not 9x but can be at least worth 5x normal-PA @level-4,
afaik critical modifier is random not a fixed 3x, rather 1.5/2/2.5/3x.
Yes, there's .5 so you can end up adding 1-stam attacks to round things.

When you crit with Barbarus it does take three times the amount of health from the dragon's red bar, but it has no effect on demi slots and FP rewards which are purely based on how much stamina you poor in it. 150 stamina with 100% crits will show the same loot results as 150 stamina with 0 crits. So you don't need to add any 1-stam attacks or anything complicated.

Stwes
09-22-2010, 05:34 PM
Thank you, that is most helpful.

Candoi
11-09-2010, 05:18 PM
I found this thread only yesterday. After reading all your posts I do have just one simple question. I am a level 182 with a stamina of 174 and an attack of 480. I summoned an Emerald Dragon yesterday evening (after reading this thread). I clicked the power attack button 30x. Even with these stats I was just able to do over 100,000 damage. With only using 150 stamina and not putting any points into attack how are you able to do 234,000 damage for the most efficient favor point rewards?

I am pretty sure I missed something along the way. Maybe I will go back through the thread and reread it again.

ucdPolarBear
11-09-2010, 06:54 PM
I found this thread only yesterday. After reading all your posts I do have just one simple question. I am a level 182 with a stamina of 174 and an attack of 480. I summoned an Emerald Dragon yesterday evening (after reading this thread). I clicked the power attack button 30x. Even with these stats I was just able to do over 100,000 damage. With only using 150 stamina and not putting any points into attack how are you able to do 234,000 damage for the most efficient favor point rewards?

I am pretty sure I missed something along the way. Maybe I will go back through the thread and reread it again.

234k is talking about Serpent, which is not stamina based.
Dragon is power attack based.

Candoi
11-10-2010, 02:14 PM
So if the Dragons are Power Attack based how come when i spent 150 stamina (30 PA) i received only 2 demi points and virtually nothing else, besides a pair of rusty gloves?

ucdPolarBear
11-10-2010, 05:39 PM
So if the Dragons are Power Attack based how come when i spent 150 stamina (30 PA) i received only 2 demi points and virtually nothing else, besides a pair of rusty gloves?

Loot is random. That is the sweet spot that on average (if you did many dragons) pays out the best per stamina spent.

In this game, nothing is a guaranteed thing. When you start aiming for Legendary items, prepare to deal millions of dmg and receive garbage for you efforts :D It happens.

huckoo
12-21-2010, 08:19 AM
i noticed that you only include amethyst and ancient damage data for sweet spot. how about emerald and sapphire? what's their over-hitting damage?

Prem Chopra
12-21-2010, 04:53 PM
Notice that emerald and sapphire have a very low rate of dropping FPs (1% and 3%), making them a waste of time and stamina.

Mateo420
12-21-2010, 11:39 PM
First, I just wanted to say this is a great guide. I've only been playing for a few weeks and had just begun looking for ways to harvest SP and FP and this definitely helps with the FP portion. I just had a few followup questions.

1) Is it more rewarding to focus on one Dragon or should I spread my PA out? For example, if I have 750 stamina (150 PA) would it be more beneficial to spend it all on one dragon, or use 140 stamina (28 PA) on five separate Dragons?

2) Once 28 PAs is achieved, there seems to be less reward to do more PA (assuming the Dragon will be defeated). So, once I reach the 28 mark, I should just move to the next dragon?

3) Just wanted to reconfirm what I believe I understand regarding generals. For the purpose of this, the chosen general is irrelevant, correct?

I read the entire thread, so I hope I am not asking questions that are already clear. I am pretty new and still building my stats, so I think this is especially important to my needs and really appreciate the time so many have put into it.

* 27 PAs will typically reward 1-3 demi slots (Tagging / Low Reward)

* 28 PAs will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Sweet Spot)

* 60 PAs will typically reward 2-4 demi slots (Over-hitting)

* 150 PAs will typically reward 3-5 demi slots with a possibility for 2 (Severe Over-hitting)

EpiQC
12-22-2010, 02:58 AM
1. Spread
2. Yes.
3. Pretty much. But you can get extra demi points when you hit with Morrigan/Angelica.

Mateo420
12-22-2010, 04:47 AM
1. Spread
2. Yes.
3. Pretty much. But you can get extra demi points when you hit with Morrigan/Angelica.

Ok, thanks a lot! Greatly appreciated!

Mateo420
12-25-2010, 05:24 AM
How is this affected by equipping Barbarus?

I just got him and he is 2x stamina damage. In calculating for this FP harvesting, do I just simply divide the number of PA's needed to meet the sweet spot?

tannerjwinn
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
If I'm gonna start farming Dragons (or serpents I suppose) does it matter what type?

Matezma
01-01-2011, 08:00 PM
If I'm gonna start farming Dragons (or serpents I suppose) does it matter what type?

Yep. Check out the FP and Demi slot section for both types of monster.

damador
02-07-2011, 09:20 AM
serpents nefred again ? for some reason i started getting 2-3 demi slots at 235k dmg/heal for ancient serpent ....

khanvalescent
02-07-2011, 09:24 AM
serpents nefred again ? for some reason i started getting 2-3 demi slots at 235k dmg/heal for ancient serpent ....

4 slots are available at that damage level, not guaranteed.

damador
02-07-2011, 11:02 AM
i knot not guaranted - but since yesterday it worked quite well 4 slots in 90 % time 3 in other 10 ( i killed 12-15 serpents day )

and since last 24 hrs after killing 16 serpents ALL of them have 2 slots (at 235k + dmg )

Legendata
02-20-2011, 06:12 PM
Bump for an old thread ... is it only my very bad luck or there has been another FP nerf ?
Got 3 FPs for the last 27 serpents and I usually do around 300K or more damage.
I can see the same trend with the dragons I do as well ... 3FPs for the last 22 dragons.
(this is more or less from the last week)

What are your recent observations?

Mateo420
02-21-2011, 01:32 AM
Bump for an old thread ... is it only my very bad luck or there has been another FP nerf ?
Got 3 FPs for the last 27 serpents and I usually do around 300K or more damage.
I can see the same trend with the dragons I do as well ... 3FPs for the last 22 dragons.
(this is more or less from the last week)

What are your recent observations?

The problem with the drops are the devs get wind of it and they nerf them. Many people have stopped posting about it on the forums and keep the discussions off list and among friends to avoid future nerfs. I have over 140 FPs from farming the past few days after having a break from the game due to an internet downing and no other possible ways to communicate on this damn island. My numbers are down a little but thats mainly because I have been focused on other stuff as of late.

Legendata
02-21-2011, 04:20 AM
Thx for the answer Mateo. I guess then that it is just my bad luck last days ... pretty bad though :)

Scotty Walker
08-31-2011, 09:48 PM
Bump for an old thread ... is it only my very bad luck or there has been another FP nerf ?
Got 3 FPs for the last 27 serpents and I usually do around 300K or more damage.
I can see the same trend with the dragons I do as well ... 3FPs for the last 22 dragons.
(this is more or less from the last week)

What are your recent observations?

Same here, recently trying to catch up with the Joneses without tapping the already drained credit cards any further. Having some luck on FP gathering, even started a new group to get things kicked off with new info (damage /reward data) If anyone is interested please come join and help pin down the latest rewards. Here is the group ID. http://www.facebook.com/groups/109292949173843/

Brandelyn
09-17-2011, 02:58 PM
This is pretty awesome. I remember a guild member of mine mentioning that some monsters are better with giving fp.

Thanks.

Stwes
03-29-2012, 06:07 PM
This is good stuff

Patrick D
03-29-2012, 06:29 PM
This is good stuff

A lot of it is outdated since the recent nerf, but have fun. :p

tricker
03-29-2012, 07:29 PM
yes, very outdated. It may be 2 nerfs behind even.

Denier
03-30-2012, 01:20 AM
Good info gathering.

Thanks for Sharing.

Eadwine
03-30-2012, 09:48 PM
YESS, this stuff is very dated, our group disbanded 2 years ago in June. So take everything with many grains of salt. This being said, there is still a lot of good info here. It also gives insight to the game mechanics, which we gleaned from lots of playtesting. There have been 3 major nerfs since this was last updated, but I've read it many times.