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Lord Dufduf
05-20-2010, 03:58 AM
Duffy’s Beginners Guide Including – The 300 Rule Character Building Formula

The 300 plan or 300 rule, a rule in the sense of a “Rule of Thumb” or algorithm, is a formula for building a strong, flexible, character that is free of glaring weaknesses, and will improve the enjoyment of playing Castle Age.

This guide is intended for beginners to intermediate player. Advanced players can also benefit by applying many of the principles and techniques that may have eluded them, especially advanced players with lopsided builds.

In essence:
The 300 rule is for all players of all styles and represents the minimum that every player should have. I believe all players should have 300 energy/stamina before they do any long term planning for their character.
And here is why.

History
Let us first begin by documenting the history and nonstop changes of Castle Age (CA). This is important to the new player who is or maybe becoming very confused at this point. Especially if said player has frequented CA forums and the like, and has been given, “advice” from the “experts”. It is important to give this background so the beginner will understand the "Why" and "How" the 300 plan works, and also why the “expert advice” being given is false due to the fact that the game has changed and the “experts” are still giving advice based on the “old” way of playing, and that game no longer exist. They mean well but they are stuck with the old parameters. If you are a beginner please read this history, so it will not just be some guy telling you what to do. You the beginner will know what to do and why, and not need advice ever again about direction for character building.

When CA first came out it was only a player VS player format (PVP). There were no monsters, no dragons, only quest and other players to attack. The stats for attack and defense were merged into one, and the gauntlet (where there is no level restriction to hinder people from attacking you) was set at level 70. The main strategy was to build up massive amounts of skill points (SP) in your attack and defense stats.

This was achieved by “slow leveling” your character. You did not want to reach level 70 and get slaughtered, so you used little if any energy, for it makes you level faster. You did want to take your daily blessing (DB) to improve a stat by 1 SP per day, usually attack/defense. The best weapons were only available through the demi powers. So you wanted those demi points. A player can receive 50 demi points per day from attacking, and no more, a rule that still stands. The application went something like this: log on; attack 50 players; take daily blessing; log off. And when you finally did level up in a few days or a week, you were awarded 5 SPs that were usually dropped into attack/defense.

The Old Advice (Mantra)

1000 attack 1 defense
Energy max 120
Stamina max 120
Build up your BSI

BSI (Battle strength index) is given by the formula:
BSI= ((Attack+Defense))/Level

A high BSI usually 6 and up is considered the Holy Grail of PVP. It simply means you have the biggest guns for your level. The slower you level the higher your BSI. Seeing that attack and defense were merged into one, just get to 1000 in attack. You only need enough energy to complete the highest quest (120 energy was high in those days), and why have more than 120 stamina. These were the mantas of the early days.

Lord Dufduf
05-20-2010, 04:01 AM
The Changes
Practically overnight several major changes occurred. Attack and defense were split in two parts, the new formula given by:

Attack Strength=Attack+Defense(0.7)
Defense Strength=Attack(0.7)+ Defense

This meant that those people with 1000 attack were still at 1000 attack when they attacked but were now at 700 for defense. A player who was at 500 attack and 500 defense was now at 850, for both.

The second major change introduced was monsters. This is a generic term that includes any and all things that you attack that is not a fellow player and with it a new form of player emerged, the player VS monster (PVM), often referred to as a slayer.

In monster attacks, most attacks require 5 stamina for each attack. Some but not all require huge amounts of energy, as well as, huge amounts of stamina. Many of these monsters have extremely large hit points (hp), Cronus, The World Hydra at 125,000,000 hp, Bahamut (a dragon) at 120-140 million, and several others almost as large.

There are 3 keys to slaying a creature. First, you need huge amounts of energy and stamina. Second, you need to network with friends and raise an army hopefully filled with people that have huge amounts of stamina and energy as well. Hence the development of slayer groups. Third, siege weapons. A siege weapon is a call to arms (CTA) notifier that requires 1 stamina. When a set number of people click on your notifier several million damage will be inflicted immediately onto the creature. In real life game play people will click on several CTAs from other players, leave a message like, “please return the favor” and a link to their creature. A player could help 30 people (hence give up 30 stamina) to help launch other peoples siege weapons, and in return, when they return the favor, your siege will launch, greatly reducing the work required to slay the beast. A timer is always running, and when times up you gain nothing. You just wasted a few days and lots of stamina and energy. If by stamina attacks and or energy attacks as well as siege weapons launched, the team is successful, you kill the beast before time runs out, you each receive large amount of loot drops in proportion to the damage you inflicted. Not only will you receive the best swords, armor, helmets, and soldiers. You also attain the best experience points return for your energy and stamina used.

Skill Points & Leveling
A main conflict of terminology exist between the PVP and the PVM when it comes to SPs. This is most evident in advice the PVP gives a beginner in the forum. A beginner will post, “How do I get more SPs?” The PVP will advise to up your att/def, you only need 120-150 stamina/energy, improve your BSI; in short follow the PVP world. Now this is true if you add, “How do I get more SPs (per level)?” Then yes, slow leveling will get you more SPs per each level, it will just take you a year to get 200 levels accomplished. It is obvious that the beginner does not want that. He wants to jump in there and have some fun, crank out the levels, because every time you level you get SPs, and the more SPs the stronger your character. Plus, the more things you can do with your character. The more fun you will have.

Leveling and skill point distribution is also confusing for a beginner. “If the PVP has more SPs per each level, and the PVM has more SPs overall, who wins?” this question is at the heart of the matter.

Let’s say a PVP has a character and levels him to level 20 and stops. He does absolutely nothing other than daily blessing. So each day he will improve by 1 and only 1 SP. He does this for 1000 days in a row. After the 1000 days, he would have a level 20 character that has an attack of 1000. No one else will play his or her character this way. They will simply level normally and get their 5 SPs for the level. So you can see the PVP person obtained 1000 SPs for level 20, the rest of us got 5. So yes, PVP does get more skill point per level. But at what cost. This is of course an extreme exaggeration. But it proves that PVP is purchased with time. In real game play, you might run across a PVP at level 100 or so. He might have an army 200 smaller than you and yet he still wins. Because of his huge att/def stats. And you might think, “Wow that guy is awesome.” But what you don’t realize is even if you both are at level 100, he’s been playing the game months and months before you.

To see the solution we only need to start a hypothetical PVP and PVM at the same time. The PVM player will dump SPs into energy first, stamina second. The PVP player will dump most all SPs into attack. Let’s allow for some variation. There are low level boss fights that both players should do so both will need to deviate and dump a few SPs into stamina early on, as they see fit. So what I am saying is they are PVP, PVM for the most part. By the time the PVP player reaches level 30 the PVM player will be at level 70 and above. This means the PVM has 200 SPs in leveling alone on the PVP. Another 100 or so in questing. Most dumped into energy and stamina, allowing for even more leveling to occur. The PVM will be able to amass 15-20 SPs per day at the height of his leveling. It will slow down when the quests run out. The PVP will never average more than 3-6 SPs per day or so. The PVM will catch up to other PVPs that started months ago and not be able to defeat them in a duel. The PVP, now 100 levels behind, will have PVMs catch up to him and he will defeat them in a duel. The original two players will never see each other again until they meet in the gauntlet currently set at level 300.

But what happens when the PVP finally makes it to level 300, and they meet again in the battle page? That all depends on how many SPs the PVM allocated to att/def. If he dumped all into energy/stamina even if he’s at level 1000, and the PVP 700 levels below at level 300, the PVP will still win the duel.

But what if the PVM stopped dumping into energy and stamina once he reached a certain stat level. In this scenario, the PVM has a 700 level advantage at 5 SPs per each level for a grand total of 3500 SPs that he has, that the PVP does not. He could have been improving his att/def by 3500, destroying the PVP at his own game.

I will now show you the formula to do just that.

Lord Dufduf
05-20-2010, 04:03 AM
The 300 Rule
First, bring your energy up to 300 minimum (or 600-1000 better). Second, increase stamina to 300 minimum. In that order. Take your daily blessings in attack and defense. You should start on Malekus the demi for attack and complete him 100% before moving on to Corvintheus the demi for defense. You should always complete a demi power at 100% before moving on to another. The best gifts are the last ones. So finish what you start. Malekus has many of the best gifts to improve your character early on. This way, while you are building your energy and stamina, the attack/defense stats are not lacking.

It is here that a player must make a decision. To follow the 300 plan literally, improving att/def to 300 as well. 300 energy/stamina/attack/defense, straight across the board, often referred to as a hybrid player. One who can PVP and PVM both. Or go more into the PVM world exclusively, and increase energy and stamina up to 600, without following the plan word for word, leaving yourself weaker than 300 att/def. The original 300 rule was 300 across the board, 300 energy/stamina/attack/defense. This may still suit some people. The problem is 300 into att/def will slow down your leveling speed dramatically. It is best to get 300 energy/stamina then from there get both to 600 energy/stamina or more, remember energy first. Around that time you will have a good grasp of how much to allocate to attack/defense and not slow yourself down too much. In other words you do still want minimum of 300 across the board, just not all at once right away.

PLers (Power Levelers) will not allocate to att/def until they reach very high stats of energy or stamina. There are 2 main types of PLers: Energy or Stamina. In both get your energy to 300-600 first, then if a stamina build is your desire increase stamina to 1,000. This particular paragraph has been edited. (It has now since been proven that PLing is the best route to take in the long run.) It will leave you weak for about 3-6 months. It also requires a great deal of work. I strongly recommend the 600-1200 energy 1000 stamina build (as a basis). Some allocation to att/def might be necessary so that you don't use up all your e/s just doing min damage. PL to PVM to PVP is a possible course to follow.

A player can even leave energy/stamina at 300 and dump all SP into Att/Def, and go the PVP route. You should never increase your health. Leave it alone. You might increase it by daily blessings to get that 40/40 amulet. But other than that, never touch it. Large health just means people can attack you longer (The exception might be the current Guild Wars).

Building in increments of 300 works very well in actual game play. I should know I’m my own Guinea pig. It also has the added benefit that if you build energy/stamina in increments of 300 you will regenerate almost completely each day. It takes 5 minutes to regenerate a unit. 24 hours is 24*60 = 1440 minutes per day. 1440/5 = 288 units regenerated of your 300 each day. Not exactly 300 but close enough to level up with. If you follow the 600 rule plan, 1440*2 days = 2880. 2880/5 = 576. Again not exactly 600 but BOTH energy and stamina regenerate so you will level each day. Say your energy is at 800 and stamina at 100 and you go out of town for the weekend you will have 100 stamina fully recharged, but your energy will not be. You have in essence just wasted 500 or so stamina units. Units that could of recharged while you were out canoeing or whatever. And of course a waste of energy as well for not regenerating. Energy first. Build up energy first so that you have the ability to acquire SPs from quest for the harder stamina building. Even though stamina gives a better experience return it cost 2 per each one. So energy will actually allow you to level faster than stamina. But with out stamina farming is difficult.

Since CA has changed, 300 energy/stamina should be the minimal amount of energy/stamina that any one has, yes even PVPs. All players must fight monsters for loot. Must fight monsters. All the best amour, spells, weapons, etc are ALL from monsters these days.

The 300 plan will keep you from making huge mistakes like: 1000 stamina, 10 attack (Excluding PLers); 50 stamina, 1200 attack; 250 health; or any other bad ideals.
It should be noted that even if one does go the PVM route he or she will still need a large attack in order to do massive damage to the summoned creature. That is why 1000 stamina and 10 attack is a bad build. Yes, you can whack the creature 1000 times but with 10 attack, you will do practically nothing in damage. Unless the player is PLing and attacking dragons which drop loot per stamina used not damage inflicted. But even PLers wil at some time in the future want to increase their attack or defense. And the pure PVP is also a bad ideal for yes you can defeat almost anyone with 1200 attack but you can only whack 50 times and you’re done for the day. It will also take 3-5 days to level or 3-5 Oracle refills per each level. Making it almost impossible to undo the slow leveling.

I get the rebuttal all the time from PVP players that they can change. And they can. So can I. So can you. That’s what makes CA such a fun game. The problem is they are going to have to make the change when the levels are very far apart and the quests take 20-30 energy each click, if not more. And having limited energy and stamina to begin with, (limited from a PVM perspective) means that it will take them that much longer, plus stamina goes up by 2. So when they finally do level and get their 5 SPs, stamina can increase by 2 with 1 left over. The PVM will be increasing his attack by 6 each and every day, even in the higher levels. So yes we both can change, but by the time the PVP reaches the stamina/energy that the PVM had at that snapshot in time, (whatever that snapshot was: 800 energy, 1000 stamina or something comparable to that) the PVM is now 1000 levels above at 5 SPs per each level. And if he dumped ALL that into attack?
That is why it is so important to get to 300 energy/stamina early on. If the PVP started out with the 300 rule he could still slow level if he wanted to and power level when he needs to. And you shall see the PVP will need to.

Rebuttal of Mantra
As of the writing of this guide, there is literally thousands of post in the forum about BSI. BSI bragging, post your BSI here. Who’s got the highest BSI, and pages and pages of people posting. Sure, it’s all good fun but what does it mean? Now the importance of reading the above history becomes clear, if you were paying attention, to a PVM player it means absolutely positively nothing. Not one word of it has ANY meaning what so ever. The denominator is your level. A PVM wants more levels so BSI will ALWAYS be small. A PVM could be at level 2000, attack 4000, defense 1000. (4000 + 1000)/2000 = 2.5 BSI. According to the PVP mantra very, very weak. This power leveler will attack at 4000 + 1000*0.7 = 4700. A PVP just entering the gauntlet will not only face more powerful PVPs but also insanely high PVM power levelers, with insanely high stats. So that makes the PVP when he reaches level 300 nothing more than a target. In fact, we are all targets when we hit level 300. The PVP is a very dense and powerful one, no disrespect to the PVPs, they are playing the game the way they love to play it, and that’s fine, but still not a match for the elite, and seeing levels no longer matter, he must power level as well. But he’s got 200 energy and the next level in just 3750 experience points away. The PVM either doesn’t care about dueling anyway, he’s perfectly content slaying the fierce dragon, or in 6 months will be 900-1000 SPs higher. And a lot of the pecking will slow down.

That is why all PVPs when they hit the gauntlet will level as fast as they can. There is no more any need to slow level, hence there is no more need for BSI. In short, BSI is ONLY for PVP players and ONLY for PVP players below level 300. But yet if you are a newbie and go to the forum and ask advice the first thing you will probably get is: “What’s your BSI?”

Lord Dufduf
05-20-2010, 04:05 AM
Final Form
The 300 plan is for all players of all styles and represents the minimum that every player should have. I believe all players should have 300 energy/stamina before they do any long term planning for their character.

But what about the end game? What final form should my character take? Of course, by now you should know that depends on your goals. And following the 300 rule, you also know, you CANíT mess up your character. So there is no worry or anxiety. But I will show you what works in real life, not just in theory.

One could continue the 300 rule indefinitely. 300 energy/stamina. Then 600 in both. Perhaps by then 200-300 into att/def. Followed by 900 energy/stamina. Building somewhat evenly but being mindful not to slow the leveling speed down too much with att/def all at once.

I recommend 600 energy 1000 stamina as a good basis for a non PL build. Then choose a stat to go to infinity. Infinite means you will just keep dumping every SP from here on out into that category. To make this build do the 300 rule, then up energy/stamina by increments of 100-200, always increasing energy first. If this is the final form you choose then for all time, take a daily blessing and dump all SP into attack. What will develop is a character that has enough energy and stamina to get by and in time will do massive damage to monsters as well as other players. This is of course just one ideal.


Here are some other examples:

Energy 2000
Stamina 1000
Attack inf
Defense 300

Energy 2000
Stamina 300
Attack 300
Defense inf

Energy 300
Stamina 1000
Attack inf
Defense 300

Energy 300
Stamina 300
Attack inf
Defense 300

Energy 600
Stamina 600
Attack inf
Defense 300

Energy 300
Stamina 300
Attack inf
Defense 2000


All these builds start with the 300 rule and then cater to the players own liking. Even PVP builds should start with 300 rule. A player can accelerate the 300 rule and use it as a intro to PLing. 600energy, 300 stamina. 900/600, 1200/1000.

It should also be apparent from the table above that one player did the 300 rule once, and then allocated to attack to infinity. The other player did the 300 rule twice, but stopped at attack and did it to infinity. All other builds shown or ones you come up with, are manipulations of SP allocations that the player chooses for his own enjoyment.

The player at the bottom may not have the patience for 2000 defense and stop allocation to defense at 1000, 1100, or 800. He may not care to build att/def as 1:1 ratio. He might just like the bragging rights of 1500 attack and just left the defense at 600. Sure, itís a weakness when someone attacks him, but maybe all he cares about is killing you. See how much fun we can have.

All the builds above are limited, limited by Favor points (FP) refills. Yes, some people pay for favor points and use then to refill stamina (It cost 10). So they will level, then use up their massive energy and stamina, pay 10 FPs, level again, use up their massive energy and stamina once again. Another reason to have both energy and stamina in large quantities, so you are 70% to 80% done with the level 10 minutes after you leveled. And a FP refill is a guarantee youíll level completely, again. But stopping at 2000 energy or 1000 stamina means you care. What if you donít care to pay for refills? You allocate 3000 stamina. But you canít refill that thereís a cap. But when you level youíll have 3000. You donít need a refill to do more FP farming.

Power Leveling
Basically PLing means no large allocation into att/def. There are several ways to do this. 300 e/s first, then shoot up to 600-1200 energy followed by 1000 stamina. One might think that the 300 stamina is not enough to farm with. Not true. You will be leveling 3X a day so that 300 stamina is 900 a day. Proving once again the efficiency of PLing. Other have tried all energy first but hunting is difficult. Still others chose 600-1200 energy first then 1000 stamina (I recommend this). In the end there comes a time to allocate to att/def usually around level 400. Some choose to dump all into att or def killing their lvl speed. They are done with PL and now join the PVP world. They will in fact have more att/def, e/s, SPs, than the slow leveler who started at the same time. The other approach is based on the knowledge that a PVP will grind to a halt at around lvl600 leveling 3-4 times in a month. Simply take a daily blessing in attack to nullify their DB. Then since they are no longer leveling for the most part, each time you do toss a few into att/def. Thereby increasing your att/def by 30, 60, 120 a month players choice. This way you maintain your leveling speed and out PVP the PVPer but it will take much much longer. The 1st scenario was PL so you can be a superPVPer. The 2nd, PL and never really stop, becoming the most awesome slayer and in the far far off future PVP master as well.

Closing Remarks
This entire guide is geared toward the beginner. In fact, itís a rebuttal of all the advice being given to beginners over and over again on the forum. As of the writing of this guide 98% of all advice given in the forum is contrary to this guide. A year from now 98% of all advice will follow or line up with this guide. Why? Because in a year or two 98% of all CA players will be PVM to some degree. Even those that choose PVP will benefit from e/s first rule. Simply because if e/s comes first, it is a mathematical certainty that dominance of ALL aspects will follow. With energy and stamina you can have your cake and eat it too.



EDIT:
This thread started a whole Power Leveling (PL) debate. Here are some highlights.


A all in one place summary/outline to follow

ENERGY FIRST !! There are 2 schools of power leveling (PL). Energy or stamina.
The below builds are those that did not allocate 300 into attack defense. They chose to be a pure power leveler and forgo any allocation into attack/defense until their energy/stamina was well established.

High energy build (Energy Potion Trick currently nerfed. DO NOT COMPLETE ALL POTION QUEST TO LEVEL 4 ELSE THEY WILL NOT DROP EPs)
(Currently Nerfed: Energy refills are capped at 2000 energy per refill. Stamina refills are capped at 1000 stamina per refill.)

PL Ability to acquire Skill Points.

... I have a stamina build and am now level 381 after 3,5 months of playing, and went from 200 attack to over 700 now in less than two weeks time.


(Took about 3 weeks)
I had around 200 defense, not sure how much exactly but that's when I reached 2000 energy. Now I have 1200+ (Defense).

A step by step procedure for stamina.

....


As I wrote earlier, if you go straight for 1000 energy/stamina you will level faster and be a power house even sooner. I went for 500 energy first, then I raised stamina to 250, then I raised attack until 200 together with stamina keeping it balanced, and from then on stamina all the way and now it's getting close to 1000. I level 2-3 times a day @ lvl 290 without FP refills, and I also gain about 10 FP/day so I could level 4 times a day if I wanted.

As I stated in the guide,

A PVM could be at level 2000, attack 4000, defense 1000.
Not very many players will be able to compete with this.

The 300 into att/def early on is for those players who are not comfortable with being ultra weak for 3-4 months. As well as those still on the fence about what their goals are. It also helps in farming FPs from Sea Serpents and other monsters. Else one has to use up all his energy/stamina in order to reach the sweet spot damage.

If you can forgo any PVP type actives for 3-4 months and power level you will fair better in the long run. This of course means logging on 3-4 time a day for that first couple of months, as well as being very weak for your level. It requires patience and discipline. But after that first 3-4 months, you will be unstoppable.


See More

Invest in energy/stamina first so you can have a very high attack/defense later. If you want to get your attack/defense to a number X higher than 2000, then power leveling is the fastest way to get there. If you boost attack/defense first, then you're shooting yourself in the foot for long term gameplay.

TheLord
05-20-2010, 07:04 AM
Excellent guides you have here. As a matter of fact, I entered CA as a PvM and slowly developing myself towards PvP. Yes, winning a battle is fun but seing others generating 10-20mil damage on the monsters (and get the best loots) while I only capable of doing 3mil damage before it's dead is something to have a second thought.

As of my opinion, CA is moving towards PvM where new monsters were always introduced to meet the demand of the majority. Getting strong and unbeatable is secondary. That's why I have to agree with your advice.

I've set my character with decent attack/defence/army. Enough to cater some attacks from the duelist. It's time to focus more towards stamina/energy that have long been forgotten.

Thanks for the reminder. It's a wake up call for me. ;)

Ioannis
05-20-2010, 07:22 AM
This is the very 1st long long long post i have ever read

It was and still is my belief that new comers should not slow level. What is the point in playing a game and not having fun. I have started at February 18th and 3 months later i am at 156 level. I cant do any serious damage to Behamut to get the best items cause even with 400 attack i am relatively soft hitter. If i was a slow leveler, i would have lost interest in this game.

Excellent explanation, this took much of ur time to write and well done friend.
Its up to everyone to decide and change this according to his/her understanding of the game. There is no right or wrong way to play CA, as long as u enjoy the game. Others enjoy playing hours daily, other enjoy to play 30mins daily.

Cheers

igtenos
05-20-2010, 07:25 AM
That's a lot to digest. Some of it I agree with, some that I don't. Doing things in 300s seems a bit strange to me. I do feel, with the way things are going lately, that starting out with 200 or 300 energy is the best bet then work backwards increasing stamina, attack, and defense as necessary. Every build can benefit from that kind of energy to start things out, even pvpers. That's up to debate though. I think the main thing when creating a build is find a place where you like it and stick with the plan. Wavering from the plan may cost you in the end or at the very least cost you time.

This is definitely true of pvp builds.

Da Wimsta
05-20-2010, 07:27 AM
I'd give your opinion more credit if it didn't seem so arbitrary.

I was a huge proponent of 300 stamina, maybe the biggest in the forum, but I had arrived at that number for very specific reason, and based upon mathematical calculation derived from damage caused from spending the full load of stamina.

These calculations indicate distinct, and definitive reasons why you shouldn't invest in attack until you've reached 300 stamina. So, why then would you suggest blessing Malekus from the start?

Not only does Azeron give you a bonus to stamina, Azeron also leads to substantially better items.

You do present some good insight on energy though. I do think you can probably make this point more clear.

By starting with energy you'll accrue skill points from quests faster. One piece of advice is to get to your target energy level first.

Lastly, the real problem with the build as you suggest it is that it really slows the players progress down. I think I'll eventually get to 200 defense (since I hear there is a plateau, but I'd rather have points where they actually do something for me.

Frank Cadena
05-20-2010, 07:31 AM
Fine guide but you should put in your closing remarks, that even if you think that the way of playing that you have outlined is the 'right' way, in the end the aim is to have fun. If you don't have fun then there is no reason to play, is it?

Ahmulag Ra
05-20-2010, 07:37 AM
This is the very 1st long long long post i have ever read

It was and still is my belief that new comers should not slow level. What is the point in playing a game and not having fun. I have started at February 18th and 3 months later i am at 156 level. I cant do any serious damage to Behamut to get the best items cause even with 400 attack i am relatively soft hitter. If i was a slow leveler, i would have lost interest in this game.

Excellent explanation, this took much of ur time to write and well done friend.
Its up to everyone to decide and change this according to his/her understanding of the game. There is no right or wrong way to play CA, as long as u enjoy the game. Others enjoy playing hours daily, other enjoy to play 30mins daily.

Cheers

A lot of people would consider that to be slow levelling! ;)

On FB, I have been playing about 3 weeks longer than you, and I am about the same level - I am intentionally levelling slowly (BSI 6.5). I am a 'hybrid' in the sense that I spend most of my time killing monsters, but have built for PvP. I have no problem getting somewhere near the top of the activity board of the monster I am fighting, I just can't spread to as many monsters as a PvMer. I don't need more than 120 Energy and Stamina as I can log in twice a day. It fits my time well, and satisfies me when I see 12 people bounced off my walls while I was sleeping.

On MySpace, I instead went for a powerleveller (straight to 1000 energy). After one month's play, I am level 188. With this character, I can level at will, I make loads of money from spamming quests, I can fix a boat/fortify walls to full in moments, and I can do as much damage against a monster as my FB build - it just takes twice the stamina.

It's horses for courses. The best advice for the new player is just to look at the different parts of the game then decide which way they want to go. If they enjoy PvM then they can pump their stamina and attack. If they like PvP, they might not want to wait 400 levels before they become a force to be considered. There's no one simple answer. While I like the notion of the OP, if I had followed it when I started playing on FB, I would have been disappointed with my build by now.

The one thing I think everyone can agree on is that the new player should not ignore investing in energy and stamina for a reasonable amount of time just so they can play efficiently and effectively. Beyond that it's all down to personal taste.

igtenos
05-20-2010, 07:44 AM
Definitely. It's obvious the devs want us to take energy seriously considering they're continuously finding ways to make us burn it. Even pvpers, hybrids, and other part-time monster hunters will have to find points to put in to energy at the rate things are going.

I think the best thing we can get out of this thread is that CA is a constantly changing beast. What was good yesterday is not so good today.

Lord Dufduf
05-20-2010, 08:25 AM
This is the very 1st long long long post i have ever read
.....
Excellent explanation, this took much of ur time to write and well done friend.
.....
Cheers
That's quite an honor that it's the first really long post you read.


Excellent guides you have here. ....

As of my opinion, CA is moving towards PvM where new monsters were always introduced to meet the demand of the majority. Getting strong and unbeatable is secondary. That's why I have to agree with your advice.

I've set my character with decent attack/defence/army. Enough to cater some attacks from the duelist. It's time to focus more towards stamina/energy that have long been forgotten.

Thanks for the reminder. It's a wake up call for me. ;)

Glad I could help. I was hoping a few stronger player would have an ahha moment.

That's a lot to digest. Some of it I agree with, some that I don't. Doing things in 300s seems a bit strange to me.....

This is definitely true of pvp builds.
Yes it's a lot. But follow it and it will become clear in time.

I'd give your opinion more credit if it didn't seem so arbitrary.

I was a huge proponent of 300 stamina, maybe the biggest in the forum, but I had arrived at that number for very specific reason, and based upon mathematical calculation derived from damage caused from spending the full load of stamina.

These calculations indicate distinct, and definitive reasons why you shouldn't invest in attack until you've reached 300 stamina. So, why then would you suggest blessing Malekus from the start?

Not only does Azeron give you a bonus to stamina, Azeron also leads to substantially better items.
........


Yes us 300 stamina believers have had an uphill battle. Ironically, I stumbled across it from shear play testing. I didn't even think about the regenerating fully per day until much much later. In fact it might of been you. LOL.

All I knew is I'm at the top of ALL leader boards, fighting several creatures at one time, and I still got stamina to waste, I'm on to something here.

The 300 rule is designed to get beginners off and running and in the right direction. There is several more pages I could of added but chose to keep it as simple as I could.

So the energy/stamina but daily blessing to Malekus? I omitted a long explanation. It's basically too slow to build up on SP per day. Double for Azeron. This way when the player reached 300 stamina he isn't at 20 attack, and he's got, Berserker Axe, Juggernaut Shield. Some on these thing were from the fact that it works better in game play, NOT pure theory. Just like the 400 energy, 400 stamina, 1500(infinite) attack, 300 defense. This is not pure theory, but several on my friends have this build and some with twice the energy/stamina as well. These are things that came about from actually playing the game. It doesn't pencil out to pure efficiency, but it's devastating in REAL game play.

I would like to thank one and all for taking the time to read this. I know it's long. It had to be. For several months I've been correcting the advice being given over and over, I finally couldn't take it and this "Manifesto" boiled over.

So it had to be long in order to put to death once and for all these arguments being presented. And so that the WHY is there for all to see.

Angels
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
I've read all the guide and the other post, i completely agree with the 300 rules.
I'm lvl 254 and i'm both good at Monster Hunting usually i'm the best or among the best damage dealer of people within my lvl (240/260) and in PVP i'm Prince with a 8 ratio victory/loses.
Right now i plan to stop energy at 320, stamina increasing one each lvl, defense one each lvl, and 2 point into attack.
The problem is with monster involving energy i don't have energy to quest.

wraith
05-20-2010, 09:33 AM
For purpose of enjoying the full contents and doing well in Castle Age in current context, I agree with you. 300 stamina and energy is a good minimum to have, providing a good base to monster hunt and allows you to log in once per day without overflowing.

I'm a PvPer and do talk BSI because I'm still in the level-bracketed environment below 300. However, the concern has always been to have as high Att+Def as possible as opposed to having a high BSI. I also did consider raising energy and stamina to the levels suggested (300) but couldn't get past the argument below.

==========. ==========. =========.

Consider 2 players who started at the same time,
- Player A has 120 stamina & energy.
- Player B has 300 stamina & energy.

In the long run, both players will have completed all quests and achievements so the only difference between them would be level. Player B has invested 540 stats more than Player A in stamina + energy, so he would need to be >108 levels higher in order to overtake.

Each level requires 12.5 xp more to level (if I remember correctly), so when both Player A and B have the same combat stats, Player B would 1350 more xp to level up compared to Player A.

Assuming 1.75 xp per energy and 2.5 xp per stamina, Player B will only gain an extra 765 xp on each level-up from his extra stamina & energy, so Player A would actually level faster and be able to accumulate more Att+Def per unit time (or rather Player B might never even be able to catch up in the first place).

Factoring in FP refills, I can understand how a player with mega energy or stamina will definitely be able to catch up and overtake Player A in Att+Def. However, for Player B who has just 300 stamina & energy, will this be possible?

==========. ==========. =========.

You say that all players should have at least 300/300. My question is... If the eventual aim in Castle Age is just to be a strong pvper, is the 300/300 build really superior to the old-school 120/120 build?

I'm only comparing these two specific builds because they are within reach and I'm already convinced that a build with mega-energy or stamina would work out better for pvp anyway.

igtenos
05-20-2010, 10:10 AM
Not so much stamina -- stamina is and always will be a monster hunter stat past 120 -- but a higher energy definitely would be of benefit to a pvper. Past the demiquests, the main storyline quests have absolutely horrible xp and influence returns. There are quite a few quests early as the Land of Water that cost 20-25 energy with 3% influence returns & 1.1-1.2 xp to energy ratios. That's pretty bad. It only gets worst the higher up you go. Higher energy would give you a greater opportunity to farm sp faster. That is unless you want to spend a month or six without raising your level and praying daily.

Ioannis
05-20-2010, 10:11 AM
You say that all players should have at least 300/300. My question is... If the eventual aim in Castle Age is just to be a strong pvper, is the 300/300 build really superior to the old-school 120/120 build?

I'm only comparing these two specific builds because they are within reach and I'm already convinced that a build with mega-energy or stamina would work out better for pvp anyway.

Indeed the 120/120 build would be better but can someone play the game for over a year to just say that his built is better? The 300/300 (or any higher built) would have gained at least twice the levels (not accurate, but lets drop it for the sake of argument) to the 1st built.

What i am pointing out is that only a handfull of players would start a game and wait a year or more to say he/she has a better built.

After all my friends, even if i am at level 300+ with 100/100 attack defense, what is the worst thing that can happen to me?
I would log off before going to bed and be chained attacked and to loose 1 mil. I would be making 300mil hourly at that time and since my tier is still s soldier noone would touch me. Thats why i stopped at Lt. General and realised that getting the Archangels is not worth it. I personally prefer to fight only Cronus, as behamut doesnt offer me much.
I am level 156 with 400 attack and all best Items for PVP in inventory

Althallan
05-20-2010, 12:52 PM
My stats are:

Lvl. 306

300 Max Energy -- Do more quests
300 Max Stamina -- Launch attacks! (cost 2)
1200 Attack -- Offensive might
439 Defense -- Defense power

I'm very happy with this build. 300 Sta and 300 Energy are good stats for PvP and monster hunter.

Patrick D
05-20-2010, 04:29 PM
Not a bad guide all in all but there's some things I strongly disagree with. I will point them out below and explain why I disagree.

1) The 300 plan will keep you from making huge mistakes like: 1000 stamina, 10 attack; 50 stamina, 1200 attack; 250 health; or any other bad ideals.

1000 stamina, 10 attack is a great way to build your character, not at all inferior to what you are proposing. You will level extremely fast, much faster even than your 300 plan, and while it is true you won't be able to do much damage against monsters, it is not really a problem at all! You can always get your loot and achievements later once you hit the higher levels and you find it the right time to raise your attack/defense. Dragons are perfect for this build actually since their health is purely stamina based. Also the loot you get from dragons doesn't scale directly with damage (eg. if one person does 100k with 10 attack and another also does 100k but with 1000 attack, the one with 10 attack will get better loot on average). Some even claim that the loot you get from dragons is only based on the amount of stamina you use on it, so 30 PA will always net you the same chance for FP and epics. I haven't been able to verify yet whether this is true, but I do know that doing 30 PA with only 10 attack will net you very decent chances for FP from dragons. The only problem I found with 1000 stamina, 10 attack builds is that it is harder to collect your daily demi-points. And one other problem for me was that I couldn't stop playing the game anymore because I was constantly levelling, and that becomes really tiring after a while. For my personal enjoyment levelling 2 or 3 times a day is ideal and keeps me motivated and not burned out on this game, so I make sure to keep the right balance between energy, stamina and attack to achieve this (defense I find useless until I have reached my energy/stamina goals).

2) In a year or two years from now everyone will follow the 300 plan or something close to it. The 300 rule is the 'sweet spot' of CA.

No, in 2 years from now this game might have changed so much again that a completely different strategy may be more effective by then. Perhaps health becomes important, or other stuff is introduced which makes your strategy less efficient. And besides, 300 is no 'sweet spot' at all with a sound mathematical basis, it's an arbitrary number which can be just as good as 400, 500 or 1000. As I wrote earlier, if you go straight for 1000 energy/stamina you will level faster and be a power house even sooner. I went for 500 energy first, then I raised stamina to 250, then I raised attack until 200 together with stamina keeping it balanced, and from then on stamina all the way and now it's getting close to 1000. I level 2-3 times a day @ lvl 290 without FP refills, and I also gain about 10 FP/day so I could level 4 times a day if I wanted.

In the end, there is no 'right' or 'best' way to play Castle Age, it all comes down to what makes YOU enjoy this game to its fullest and there are no set rules for that.

flyingsausage
05-20-2010, 04:50 PM
LOL absolute nonsense.

No matter what anybody's objective is, the only way they will excel will be to focus on a single area.

Your advice just dilutes their strengths relative to their goals.

And realistically after they've been outperformed by their peers during the months needed to get 300 for every stat, it's highly unlikely they'll even want to keep playing.

They also WON'T have any chance to catch up with any specialists in their level range in ANY area.

So FAIL. This only leads to mediocrity.

phi618
05-20-2010, 09:31 PM
Interesting guide, but there are some fundamental things I disagree with.

- You say this guide is for beginners, but I think most people decide what part of CA they enjoy long before allocating 300x stats. Ie, people don't stay beginners long enough for your guide.

- See Patrick's first point above (will edit and quote later, g2g now)

- Everyone plays differently, even beginners. I put most of my points into energy/stamina at first but still balanced out attack and defense. I considered myself a Quester because that was my focus at the time. My friend, on the other hand, dumped into defense (this was before fortification monsters) because she doesn't log on every 3 hours and didn't want to lose battles while she was away.

- I disagree with your point about demi blessings. I think praying for energy or stamina first is a good way to go, to help with levelling and to get some good items. Attack and defense are my last two demis. And again, I don't think I'm a beginner.

- About your point about PvP and questing. I have 250 energy and hardly ever waste it and all of it goes into quests. That being said, I am a LONG ways away from completing all quests, and I am hardly a beginner.

- And with what pretty much everyone's said so far, there is more than one way to play CA and beginners don't need to be told they HAVE to play a certain way for months.

- Lastly, I know everyone (including me) appreciates long posts like yours, but I think you should rewrite it. You sound like a politician spending more time defending yourself and your view than you do actually explaining it.

To summarize: my main disagreement is that I think it doesn't take that long for someone to advance from that beginner stage, and that is way before they complete your guide.

peninvade
05-20-2010, 11:17 PM
I will eventually get to 300 on some of my stats but I do not agree with aiming for it immediately or going the malekus route.
My route was as follows:
Blessings to Ambrosia- raise energy to 120, then stamina to 100. then attack to 200.then defense to 100
Blessings to azeron- stamina to 150, attack to 400, defense to 200.
Blessings to malekus then aurora Stam to 220, energy to 220, attack to 1000, def stays at 200.
Current goal: Blessings to corv. stam-300, energy-300 attack to 1200

My suggestion is to pray to azeron first, instead of ambrosia, but increase all stats fairly evenly up to 200att,100def,120ene,120stam.
Then continue with aurora, and whoever afterwards. double the stats. then go for the 300 or whatever build you want. i don't see the value of 300 energy and stam early on. if you have these, then you are leveling up too quickly and i am going to pound you down with my BSI

adam ahman
05-21-2010, 01:44 AM
I've been playing since January. Up until the Arena I was going for a defensive pvp build. My BSI was 8.3 pre-arena. Post arena I didn't care much for BSI because I realized my weakness was stamina and energy. When I look at Pegasus, Orlando, and the likes. I think what the hell was I thinking?! If I had went for 1,000 stamina/energy 1st, I'd be close to level 1000 by now and could have been putting all sp's into att/def. Leveling fast is KING!!! You don't believe?? Ask Pegasus and his over 5,000 att...Old school pvp is just that OLD!! Can anyone of us imagine Luxor saying forget BSI and pushing his energy/stamina to 1000 each. Ya know what you'll get a player stronger in the long run than Pegasus. I believe thats one reason Pegasus keeps leveling because if the old schooler ever get past the old way of thinking all hell will break loose!! When all the old school pvpers realize that optimum fp refilling is best, you will see Castle Age pvping go even crazier! Im not a newby anymore but I'm not an old schooler either. Personally..Im giving up on pvp for now and am pumping energy/stam to 1000 each. In 3 or 4 months I will be level 600 or more. I did the math for my personal char. By level 670 I will reach 1000 energy/stam. By level 1000 my stats will be at...

E-1,000
S-1,000
A-2,285
D-700

I was a pvper 1st. In 5 months I'm at level 154. I have taken the slow road long enough. Great guide..not perfect but it struck me to the heart of were I am going anyways...well done!! ;)

igtenos
05-21-2010, 02:15 AM
I have had the same experiences. At some point a couple months ago I started gearing my build for pvp. By the time I hit Prince, it got to point where I was just bored with pvp. I understand why people get excited about it, but for me it was just a hassle. Just finding barons worth 6bp (when I was duke) was a pain in the ass and I didn't want to resort to hardcore chaining. I'm in the process of raising energy and stamina. I should hit 250 energy soon and plan on keeping at it until I hit 300. Then raise stamina to 300. After that, I'll probably take energy to 1000, and then do the same with stamina.

I figure I should hit around 300 energy/300 stamina by the time I hit level 300.

PS. I'm also running a power leveler on MS. He just hit 108 and I haven't even been playing 2 weeks.

adam ahman
05-21-2010, 02:27 AM
I have had the same experiences. At some point a couple months ago I started gearing my build for pvp. By the time I hit Prince, it got to point where I was just bored with pvp. I understand why people get excited about it, but for me it was just a hassle. Just finding barons worth 6bp (when I was duke) was a pain in the ass and I didn't want to resort to hardcore chaining. I'm in the process of raising energy and stamina. I should hit 250 energy soon and plan on keeping at it until I hit 300. Then raise stamina to 300. After that, I'll probably take energy to 1000, and then do the same with stamina.

I figure I should hit around 300 energy/300 stamina by the time I hit level 300.

PS. I'm also running a power leveler on MS. He just hit 108 and I haven't even been playing 2 weeks.

+1
my att and def total is over 1000 already. I'm pumping my stamina to 125 then I'm going 1000 energy then 1000 stamina. Since energy can be turned into monster damage...it doesnt make sense to have low energy anymore!!

TheLord
05-21-2010, 02:32 AM
Great guide..not perfect but it struck me to the heart of were I am going anyways...We are on the same boat here. :D

Lord Dufduf
05-21-2010, 03:58 AM
Thank you all for your post.

Yes, I figured we would disagree on some small points like the Malekus vs Azeron or Ambrosia. But as I stated it's for the beginner to intermediate to build a character that is universally strong and free of any glaring weakness. By the time the player reaches 300 energy/stamina many toys for att/def will be earned (for Dueling) as well as SP and they are not at 10 att/def. (Some players will CHOOSE to be more of a PVP and will consider 10 att/def as a weakness, some not all). So for them is why it's stated as such.

Keep in mind I'm allowing the player to CHOOSE, I did state one could abandon the plan at any time once 300 energy/stamina was reached. In fact you should. You should gear it to your own liking. And if 1000 stamina is your way, then great. In fact I am seriously considering joining you all in the 1000 stamina club. And abandoning my own personal goal of 1000 attack. We'll see. But anyway thanks Patrick D. You probably just won me over (to the dark side). LoL.

Wraith: 108 levels in order to break even. That's whats got you hung up??? In real life player B will have more like 3,4,5 times that. Player B will be 400 levels if not more up on player A. And B will not just stop allocating. Did you get the part where B could have 3500 SP more and CHOOSE to allocate to att/def and beat the PVP at his own game?? It will take a while but it is a 100% certainty.


I think Adam said it best:
"Old school pvp is just that OLD!! "

This guide had 3 main purposes:
1) To actually help people, my biggest concern, by far.

2) So I don't have to sound like a parrot and 20 time a month keep repeating my self when I correct the so called "Experts". I can refer them to this guide. (It's hard to put all this info into 2 paragraph response so they or the newbie can "Get" it)

3) It's the death toll of the old PVP way.

"Great guide..not perfect but it struck me to the heart of were I am going anyways.."

That alone was worth the time of typing.

PS
I just was ask permission to translate this into French.

CannibalCory
05-21-2010, 04:57 AM
The players coming into the game will see no reason to slow level. None at all.

Firstly, excellent guide. I think you make many excellent points. But, being the picky [precise?] guy that I am, I'd like to make one point (not sure if it has already been made).

I'm a new player, been playing about a month. I consider myself a "slow leveller", as my stamina and energy are both around 100 and both my attack and defense are about 125/100, respectively, at level 61ish (too lazy to look up exact numbers). The reason I want to slow level? In short, it is my way of having fun. Which is precisely one more reason than none. :D

EDIT: And now, of course, I see where you said you're "allowing the player to choose" in the post above. I had a hunch my point was going to be made moot somewhere in the three pages of intellect.

wraith
05-21-2010, 05:49 AM
Wraith: 108 levels in order to break even. That's whats got you hung up??? In real life player B will have more like 3,4,5 times that. Player B will be 400 levels if not more up on player A. And B will not just stop allocating. Did you get the part where B could have 3500 SP more and CHOOSE to allocate to att/def and beat the PVP at his own game?? It will take a while but it is a 100% certainty.
A player with 2000 energy can certainly overtake Player A by a huge amount of level.

In real life, Player B with 300 sta/energy will NEVER "have more like 3,4,5 times that (108 level difference)". The extra 180 stamina and energy Player B have may not even provide enough extra XP on level up to break even with Player A (he will at best be around 60-80 levels higher before he start to level up slower than Player A). Unless you start factoring in endless credit cards, in which case you are always better off with a huge pool of stamina / energy to optimize refills.

I would just like to have my maths proven wrong rather than a blind sweeping statement that just does not make logical sense rising xp requirement per level.

igtenos
05-21-2010, 06:32 AM
I agree. I doubt 300 would be enough. But 1000 energy? 2000? now we're talking. Factor in 35/20 abuse and dragon farming and you got yourself a monster.

Lord Dufduf
05-21-2010, 11:08 AM
A player with 2000 energy can certainly overtake Player A by a huge amount of level.

In real life, Player B with 300 sta/energy will NEVER "have more like 3,4,5 times that (108 level difference)". The extra 180 stamina and energy Player B have may not even provide enough extra XP on level up to break even with Player A (he will at best be around 60-80 levels higher before he start to level up slower than Player A). Unless you start factoring in endless credit cards, in which case you are always better off with a huge pool of stamina / energy to optimize refills.

I would just like to have my maths proven wrong rather than a blind sweeping statement that just does not make logical sense rising xp requirement per level.

OK first I didn't think there was anything to do BUT make a blanket statement. Because, you began the argument with a really really Big blanket statements.

You first said, "both players will have completed all quests and achievements."


How long does it take so that "both players will have completed all quests and achievements."

They will not complete this at the same time. So I'm a little confused about how they just both got it all done? I know it's hypothetical, but it might take a year longer for A who knows. There is a year of SP and levels right there that A is missing.

How many clicks does it take to complete a quest from level 1 to level 2? In land of water we are looking at 24 or so energy per each click. With 120 energy you got 5 clicks. (and where does that bring you up to, 20% complete? Who knows) With 300 energy you got 12.5 clicks. But how many before you are rewarded with a SP? Again who know 12, 15, 19, clicks before you get that SP. I've never counted but its a lot to finish "Land of Water" completely to level 4. And that's just one land.

Energy Clicks
120 5
300 12.5
400 16.66666667
500 20.83333333
600 25
700 29.16666667
800 33.33333333
900 37.5
1000 41.66666667
1100 45.83333333
1200 50
1300 54.16666667
1400 58.33333333
1500 62.5
1600 66.66666667
1700 70.83333333
1800 75
1900 79.16666667
2000 83.33333333

Not trying for an over kill but even the 120 VS 300. The 300 got over twice as many clicks. A guy with 2000 energy got 83 clicks. So you can't just say they both got them all done. B could go on a world cruise twice, before A catches him and complete ALL quest and achievements.

And you assume B never allocates these SPs? "They have the same combat stats." Where do they go? In "Land of Water" there are 5 parts, a main and 2 sub quest. All to be completed to level 4. So each part has 3*4 =12. And 12*5 = 60 SP total for "Land of Water".

12.5/5 = 2.5. B is 2 and a half time faster than A. Now if A's 5 clicks net him 20% completion (lets just use this-again I've never counted), it takes him 5 days to get 1 SP. That is 60*5 = 300 days to complete "Land of Water", almost a year. It took B 300/2.5 = 120 days to complete. The 2000 guy 18 days (of course he would level more often so not accurate for him in real game play).

If we use this as a base A= 60, B=60*2.5 = 150. B-A = 90. Each time A finishes a world at 100% level 4 completion B has earned 90 more SP than A (B moved on to the next one). But yet B remains at 300 energy/stamina, and A and B have the same att/def? Not possible. (OK omitting health, and B just sitting there and doing nothing with them.)

There are 8 worlds (not even counting demi quests and Atlantis) the new one "Kingdom of heaven" has 120 SP. And these require more energy than "Land of Water." It will take A 8 years to complete. B 8/2.5 = 3.2 years to complete. 8-3.2 = 4.8 years. B will need to wait around more than 4.8 years for A to catch up. How many levels will B have as a head start by then? (And if you don't allocate to energy this is the fate of all hard core PVPers will face.) B has completely destroyed A in SPs. He will need to put these SPs somewhere. Keep in mind I'm saying 5 clicks gives you 20%. Some quest it might other are faster, then just use a multiplying factor. This is just an example as I said I never counted, but it's probably ball park NOT gospel.

"In the long run, both players will have completed all quests and achievements so the only difference between them would be level"

" ...the only difference" ??? 4.8 + years of levels and SPs, is the minimum difference.


And that's just energy, not even figuring stamina into the equation.


EDIT:
I did go back and count. Every click was 6%-9%. Using 6% that is 3 clicks to make 20%. Or 3/5 of the original total and 3/5 = 0.6. (I was 40% to high)Then 60% (0.6) is the multiplying factor. Then A's 8 years is 8*(.6) = 4.8 years to complete. B will need to wait around 4.8(0.6) = 2.88 years. This is of course just ball park for all quest have different rates. So it you have 120 energy it will take you over 4 years to complete all main quest. But the main point is energy/stamina is propagational.

Propagational you know like when you did a physics lab and you screwed up part 1. By the time you got to part 3.... It's like that. But in this case its not propagational error it's propagational advantage. A little advantage in energy/stamina goes a long way.

RAUKO
05-21-2010, 12:08 PM
Saw that coming at lv 80 and started changing my build that was BSI>5 at that moment.
Currently 625 stamina, 870 energy. Playing with these stats is more fun for me, but I wouldn't preach it as the only or the best way.
Word to the wise: the sooner you start to modify your build the better. There is a point after which only heavy CCing will help.

Rheannan
05-21-2010, 12:14 PM
It was and still is my belief that new comers should not slow level. What is the point in playing a game and not having fun.

Which means that some people are going to be slow levellers. It's about the kind of build that you're going to find enjoyable, which is all about having fun, as you pointed out.

ChaosZereul
05-21-2010, 03:47 PM
Reading the guide, I have to say it was very well-thought out. However, like someone said, 300 can be used just as easily as any number; in fact, about a month or two ago, my personal aim was to hit 200 on everything, THEN decide where to go from there. When I saw 300, I thought this was going to be filled with "THIS IS SPARTAAA" jokes or what have you, tbh.

The only other real issue I have with the number 300 in this is: Isn't Attack/Defense Tiered? I know I heard somewhere that the initial aim - if you want to deal decent damage to monsters - was to get to 200 Att/Def first, and after that, you had to choose one or the other, since you wouldn't see as big of an increase in damage until you hit the next Tier.

xienwolf
05-21-2010, 04:31 PM
Maybe it was answered in another post already, but why would you get energy to 300 without touching Stamina? Seems to me you waste a TON of levelling potential while you sleep that way. Hitting 300 Energy will take you a fair little amount of time afterall. And you can get to 120/120 at about the same time, meaning that you get full use of your sleeping hours for the second chunk where you work up to 300/300.

Marlfox
05-21-2010, 04:50 PM
Sounds like any other of the many ways how to play CA. I decided to go for a BSI of 6.5 (am at 5.9 as we speak), Level 151. My energy and stamina are both around 150 (depending which general I equip when leveling up).

When I have reached it, I will reconsider directions. Nothing to lose sleep over!

revdjweb
05-21-2010, 06:15 PM
This is a fine guide for building a power leveler/monster hunter but i find its' presumptuousness regarding PvP very off putting and ill informed.

Yes it is easier for a high energy/stamina to reverse course and start adding attack/defense than the other way around but the thing is, in the interim a good PvP build will be pounding the tar out of everyone around them until level 300. And being a slow leveling PvP means that level 300 is going to take the better part of a year, which is a long time to be playing any game. Yes post Gauntlet super high level characters with lousy BSIs can beat level 3xx PvPers but you know what? It doesn't matter. PvPers are primarily interested in fighting other PvPers who have rank, a level 1200 Knight Commander offers nothing to a PvP type unless he is merely farming daily demi points. And even this scenario assumes that the PvP type hasn't reach High King by level 300, which is something most strive to do at which point the PvPer has essentially completed PvP until the introduction of a new rank tier.
Another annoying presumption of the game is the supposed supremacy of monster hunting. This is strictly a matter of opinion and not based in any fact. I'm here to tell you that I find monster hunting extremely boring. The monsters aren't any threat, only the timer poses any kind of a threat and <insert sarcasm here> nothing is more dramatic to me than watching a clock countdown. The gear drops, beyond the ones that give you the best in class for PvP, are largely irrelevant even in invasions (unless the stats are super close). The main reason I battle monsters is for the achievements. SPs and FPs mean considerably more to me than trying to get a 5th Genesis Sword. PvPers do what they do because they enjoy the challenge of testing their build against another cunning player, not collecting shiny baubles from some automaton.
The final thing I have to say about the approach espoused in this guide is that while it will pay off in the long run it leaves the character dangerously exposed to changes in the game in the interim. Take the Arena as the most striking example. Anyone who spends their first 900 sps (about 100 levels worth counting quests and whatnot) raising stamina and energy will not be able to accomplish anything in the Arena, essentially forfeiting all of that good gear (and more importantly, bragging rights). Nor is it that easy to turn around either. Even if you spent the next 100 levels/900 sps raising attack/defense that just makes you a typical level 200 hybrid with a BSI of 4.5 and there are tons of players who would be happy to walk all over you in that Arena bracket. Yes you may get to level 200 faster than others who started at the same time you did but you won't be any better than your level peers. So basically you're sacrificing hundreds of levels and months of game play to get a "useful" character type, if by useful you mean being adept at fighting monsters. Meanwhile if anything changes in the game during that period (another Arena, Gauntlet gets raised again, etc.) your character is ill prepared to take advantage of it.

In summation, a good guide but it would be better if it played to its' strengths and didn't get sidetracked trying denigrate other approaches to character building.

ayeks
05-21-2010, 10:27 PM
Nice Guide.. :D:D

I like your 300 rules. something like SPARTAAAAAAAAAA>> LOL

Thanks for making a good guide.

Lord Dufduf
05-22-2010, 01:11 AM
This is a fine guide for building a power leveler/monster hunter but i find its' presumptuousness regarding PvP very off putting and ill informed.

Yes it is easier for a high energy/stamina to reverse course and start adding attack/defense than the other way around but the thing is, in the interim a good PvP build will be pounding the tar out of everyone around them until level 300. And being a slow leveling PvP means that level 300 is going to take the better part of a year, which is a long time to be playing any game. Yes post Gauntlet super high level characters with lousy BSIs can beat level 3xx PvPers but you know what? It doesn't matter. PvPers are primarily interested in fighting other PvPers who have rank,....

Another annoying presumption of the game is the supposed supremacy of monster hunting. This is strictly a matter of opinion and not based in any fact. ......

The final thing I have to say about the approach espoused in this guide is that while it will pay off in the long run it leaves the character dangerously exposed to changes in the game in the interim. Take the Arena as the most striking example......

Meanwhile if anything changes in the game during that period (another Arena, Gauntlet gets raised again, etc.) your character is ill prepared to take advantage of it.

In summation, a good guide but it would be better if it played to its' strengths and didn't get sidetracked trying denigrate other approaches to character building.

I've been waiting for a well informed PVP to show up. Your post reflects 10,000 PVP opinions, I am sure of it.

Having 300 att/def is a minimum so that you won't get "the tar" beat out of you. And yes PVP is going after that high king stay a general when you hit level 300.

But the 300 "leaves the character dangerously exposed to changes in the game in the interim" The 300 is the anti thesis of this statement. Unless that change was there's a new general and you got to have 3000 total in att/def to buy.

When monsters first came out most people had like 50-70 stamina. If even. Lots of people had 10. You were there I'm sure, how much stamina did you have? How much do you have do you have now 120, 200? And if you did the 300 back then you would of capitalized on the change immediately back then.

According to Wiki:

"Castle Age.Started on October 23, 2009.."

http://castleage.wikia.com/wiki/Castle_Age_Wiki

This can't be true for I save a mass add link from July 2009.

I started playing serious on summer break. I'm a full time student and a CA addict. I literally had to force myself NOT to log on and play during school. Or else fail out. I'm going for BS in Electrical Engineering all 300-400 level classes all with labs. I should be at level 400+ or so now but I'm not, level 200+. I remember I stopped for 3 month straight, and then played Christmas break, stopped again 2 months. So that's 10 month - 5 months = 5 months of game time. And a lot of that 5 months was just daily blessings and logging off. Oh and buying land. Maybe enough invasions to hide. OK guilty.

So that means when the arena came out I had just finished the 300 rule once. No not true I was still at 250 att/def. I was almost done with the first block of 300. I entered the arena. True I could not defeat anyone 100 levels higher than me. (I was at level 130-140) some where in there at that time.

I finish a legend. In fact according to the stats posted in this forum, I not only finished a legend I finished in the upper 20% of all legends. I took a character with a lot of theory and less than 5 months of actual play and beat out 80% of all legends. This is me currently. I win 94% of all invasions, 64% of all duels, and I still only got 300 att/def.

level 202 Earl "Earl" with 46,991 Battle Points.

Quests Completed 6906
Battles Won 22430
Battles Lost 3727
Times eliminated 71
Times you eliminated an enemy 229

I walk what I talk, and it works.

Dave O
05-22-2010, 02:48 AM
level 202 Earl "Earl" with 46,991 Battle Points.

Quests Completed 6906
Battles Won 22430
Battles Lost 3727
Times eliminated 71
Times you eliminated an enemy 229

I walk what I talk, and it works.

hmm ...

I've been playing ~ 7 months now ... been focusing on defense ...

Level 177 "Duke" with 60,143 Battle Points.

Quests Completed 5380
Battles Won 11489
Battles Lost 125
Times eliminated 0
Times you eliminated an enemy 48

Since achieving level 30, I've never lost to another attacker who is anywhere close to my level ... never. I routinely defend against others who are twice my level (obviously using bookmarks to my keep passed to them by others).

I'm not a dedicated PvP player by any stretch of the imagination -- I just don't like getting beat. My PvP consists of 50 attacks per day for the demi-points. I also did Raids to get the General Chase as well as the Arena where I finished as "Legend" w/o really doing anything as others were attacking and losing to me (got over 1000 points in the last four hours of the Arena from the frenzied attacking).

Can I defend against EVERYONE on Castle Age? Of course not. But, in my experience the only folks who seem to bother attacking high ranking, lower level players are those who have diluted builds focusing on Energy and Stamina, who can not win agianst others who appear on their own Battle Lists -- and I seem to be able to handle them just fine.

Personally, I am happy to see guides such as this promoting dilution of stats -- anyone who follows this guide is no threat to me.

Who do I "fear"?

1) The "Glass Cannon" who did not waste points on Stamina, who has an Attack ~ my Defense and likes to hide. Haven't been targeted by one yet ... but I suspect they are out there.

2) Another "Wall" -- because I lose if I stumble into them while collecting demi-points. But, that is where the "fun" of the game comes in for me ... finding the target; spying the keep; looking for indicators that it is another Wall -- and I think I am getting better at it. :)

I've found this "old school" build works fine for me ... every bit as good today as it was when the game was new. I do not anticipate any threat from anyone who follows the "300 Rule".

revdjweb
05-22-2010, 04:50 AM
When monsters first came out most people had like 50-70 stamina. If even. Lots of people had 10. You were there I'm sure, how much stamina did you have? How much do you have do you have now 120, 200? And if you did the 300 back then you would of capitalized on the change immediately back then.
I started playing just after Keira came out and it was probably 4 months before I knew what I was doing or even came to the forums. I had my energy at 110 and then 120 because that was what was needed for the largest quests. My stamina was 90 and then eventually increased to 120 just to match my energy for matching 10 hour refills, not because of any PvP philosophy. I never set out to be a PvPer. I did a lot at first because I had few friends and fewer dragons to battle then I fought monsters for a couple of months before learning I was more of a PvP build. I religiously worked increasing my BSI to 7.00. Since then I put my first 7 sps into attack/defense and any extra into energy/stamina because I do have an eye on what life is going to be like after level 300. So now I have recapped my energy at 140 while increasing my stamina. It is now 155. If I can establish and maintain a BSI of 7.00 and an LSI of 2.00 I will consider that a major achievement. More than anything I regret the 53 sps that wound up in Health going after the Moonfall Amulet even though I have Aurora as a general.



So that means when the arena came out I had just finished the 300 rule once. No not true I was still at 250 att/def. I was almost done with the first block of 300. I entered the arena. True I could not defeat anyone 100 levels higher than me. (I was at level 130-140) some where in there at that time.

I finish a legend. In fact according to the stats posted in this forum, I not only finished a legend I finished in the upper 20% of all legends. I took a character with a lot of theory and less than 5 months of actual play and beat out 80% of all legends. This is me currently. I win 94% of all invasions, 64% of all duels, and I still only got 300 att/def.
PvPers are pretty calculating by nature. Because of our relative limited energy/stamina we have to make them count for maximum effect. Congrats on finishing Legend but how high in Legend signifies nothing to me. I deliberately earned enough AP to be about 1000 above the predicted 'safe line'. I could have earned a lot more but why? I was getting the same reward either way. Also I did it in under 1000 battles and about 40 losses while routinely pounding higher level players (I only lost 3 battles I initiated). Everything with PvPers is efficiency, whether it's who we hit to farm APs or BPs or just doing the minimum damage against a world monster to have it count towards an achievement. When I see these Genesis fights and the top guy has done a combined 12 million in damage/fortifying I just chuckle because I know he isn't getting x12 as many epic and rare drops as I am sitting at one million.


level 202 Earl "Earl" with 46,991 Battle Points.

Quests Completed 6906
Battles Won 22430
Battles Lost 3727
Times eliminated 71
Times you eliminated an enemy 229

I walk what I talk, and it works.
Very nice. Be warned that there is a quantum leap once you get to Prince and I am discovering that life at King is definitely harder than Prince.

Look, I fully recognize that there are only two open ended sources of SPs in Castle Age: Daily blessings and levels. The daily blessings are strictly regulated so that only leaves levels as something players have any control over. I do not enjoy the slow leveling aspect of a PvP build but nor do I want to level so fast that the Peter Principle catches me either. I prefer to be tough for my bracket all along and I'll worry more about the Gauntlet when I get there (I was briefly in the Gauntlet back when it was under level 100). As I have said before I definitely like fighting other humans more than fighting AIs and that ultimately is the determining factor in where my SPs go.

Lord Dufduf
05-22-2010, 08:46 AM
"PvPers are pretty calculating by nature. Because of our relative limited energy/stamina we have to make them count for maximum effect."

So true. I on the other hand I play the "Blob", remember the movie. Just keep oozing stamina until I find something juicy.

You have the knowledge you know you'll have to put away the BSI ways one day. You also know that you can't gain lots of SPs quickly and not level. OOOHH what a pickle.

I recommend you slow level until 600 att/def, and do demi quest for SPs (hardly any experience points). Then pump up to 300 energy/stamina in whatever order you want. This way if you do start leveling more than you want, (Arena 2 starts, new monster new toy you got to have) you got the power house behind you so a few BSI 10ths here and there won't freak you out. You already know my stance but I feel your personal fun and enjoyment far out weighs some "Rule".

Happy hunting

Lord Dufduf
05-22-2010, 09:14 AM
Maybe it was answered in another post already, but why would you get energy to 300 without touching Stamina? Seems to me you waste a TON of levelling potential while you sleep that way. Hitting 300 Energy will take you a fair little amount of time afterall. And you can get to 120/120 at about the same time, meaning that you get full use of your sleeping hours for the second chunk where you work up to 300/300.


Very good question. The reason is there are mega SPs out there for the taking. Low level quest, Demi quest, and by going pure energy at first you pick huge amounts of SPs up. Then with that 300 energy fueling your questing you can afford the harder stamina.

You want to be 1:1 for the most part. But sometimes on the journey, the practical game play works best this way. You will be at 70-100 stamina probably any way due to Emerald Dragons and the such as I mentioned before.

unitsinc
05-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Anyone who spends their first 900 sps (about 100 levels worth counting quests and whatnot) raising stamina and energy will not be able to accomplish anything in the Arena,

Totally untrue. When arena started, I had maybe a total att+def of 50, and pretty mediocre gear. I easily made legend. 501 army plus tons and tons of stamina means I can beat a lot of people and can easily make anything I lose back.

I also easily made Baron with maybe a total of ~150 att/def for this same reason.

I also don't hide. I'm on the game more or less all day.

revdjweb
05-22-2010, 06:14 PM
You have the knowledge you know you'll have to put away the BSI ways one day. You also know that you can't gain lots of SPs quickly and not level. OOOHH what a pickle.

This is why I settled on the 7.00 BSI rule, it removes any pressure to slow level. It is no big deal generating more than 7 SPs per level and so long as I generate a minimum of 7 I don't care how fast I level, the faster the better actually. In 22 levels I have added 20 to energy and 35 to stamina. Yes achievements and battle ranks account for a good chunk of that so I won't be able to keep up that kind of pace but as long as there are quests for me to do I will continue to improve across the board with a character type I enjoy.

BSI is greatly misunderstood. People think a high BSI means you will win more battles but that isn't really true. What your BSI determines (along with how much is attack and how much is defense) is who you can beat in PvP. When you look at it this way then BSI is still relevant after level 300. At level 300 I will have 1400 attack and 700 defense. Depending on stat allocation I should break even with a level 600 character with a BSI of 3.5. A hybrid with a BSI of 4.50 (which I would think is typical) would have to be over level 467 to have as much attack/defense. So while there is little I can do against level 800 behemoths I still control who in the lower tiers of the Gauntlet can beat me. This is all I can ever expect but it wouldn't be any better if I had added more energy/stamina earlier because then anyone who had started the same approach before I did would always have the advantage on me.

Draconus
05-22-2010, 06:34 PM
The one point I can fully agree with for this thread is that the entire idea and purpose is to have fun playing CA. But then, there are as many different styles of play as there are players using and building them.

While Malekus offers free stat points for Attack, beyond those stat points Malekus offers the weakest gifts of any of the Demi's. His best weapon is only a very few points better then the weapon offered by Azeron a full week before the player can hope to acquire Azeron's best item. Overall, without those free stat points to attack, Malekus would be even less useful to a player then Aurora is considered to be. She offers better armor, as good or better weaponry early on, and of course her amulet is second to none (currently).

I can see the OP spent a great deal of time and effort thinking this out, I just can't agree with much of it beyond the basic premise.

Frank Cadena
05-23-2010, 08:52 AM
This is why I settled on the 7.00 BSI rule, it removes any pressure to slow level. It is no big deal generating more than 7 SPs per level and so long as I generate a minimum of 7 I don't care how fast I level, the faster the better actually. In 22 levels I have added 20 to energy and 35 to stamina. Yes achievements and battle ranks account for a good chunk of that so I won't be able to keep up that kind of pace but as long as there are quests for me to do I will continue to improve across the board with a character type I enjoy.

BSI is greatly misunderstood. People think a high BSI means you will win more battles but that isn't really true. What your BSI determines (along with how much is attack and how much is defense) is who you can beat in PvP. When you look at it this way then BSI is still relevant after level 300. At level 300 I will have 1400 attack and 700 defense. Depending on stat allocation I should break even with a level 600 character with a BSI of 3.5. A hybrid with a BSI of 4.50 (which I would think is typical) would have to be over level 467 to have as much attack/defense. So while there is little I can do against level 800 behemoths I still control who in the lower tiers of the Gauntlet can beat me. This is all I can ever expect but it wouldn't be any better if I had added more energy/stamina earlier because then anyone who had started the same approach before I did would always have the advantage on me.

I follow this too. I set a goal to get and then keep my BSI at 7.00. Any extraneous points that I get, I add into Energy or Stamina depend how my OC is. I'll keep on doing it until I get 500 En/Stamina or, if I finish all the quests, just stamina. Right now, at 235, my BSI is 6.5 and heavy on the defense side with 180 En/Sta and I'm happy with my build.

anwiii
05-23-2010, 09:54 PM
i don't agree at all with the 300 rule and here is why....

i just started playing about a month ago. i just hit level 80. my strategy was to build my stats and collect favor points so my plan was to duel and invade until i have 5000 wins in each category. right now i have a less than a 2% loss ratio and that's without getting good equipment and weapons from fighting monsters. so right now my stats are set. while still trying to get the best off hand from azeron. i suggest everyone go for him first because in the long run, a newbie will be better off.

although 300 stats in stamina and energy may make sense for someone who only logs in once a day, for those who log in 2-3 times a day, it doesn't make sense at all. plus, those who log in more times a day have an advantage because you only have to build your energy and stamina to 120. that's where i have mine set at right now. with those stats, i only have to log in once every 10 hours. that way, i can make better use in placing my stats in attack. so while you are building you energy and stamina, you could be level 150 and i will still beat you when i am less than level 100.

my rule of thumb is that if a serious player wants to play the game right, he will have these stats....

energy: 120
stamina: 120
health: 100
attack: unlimited
defense: 25% of attack

so once you build your energy and stamina to 120, every level up, you put 4 in attack and 1 in defense.

this strategy is to build up your stats first and your wins/losses ratio in the beginning of the game. after level 100, you have unlimited time to fight monsters after that. it is also a good strategy to build up a good income for the last couple of quests where the equipment is expensive.

so. i highly disagree with the 300 rule UNLESS a player only logs in once a day. but we all know that in the beginning, if a player only logs in only once a day, his energy and stamina is WASTED away. that's why i tried to log in once every hour when i first started playing. now, i can safely play the game before i go to bed and after i wake up, keep my 120 stats in energy and stamina and feel safe in building my attack WITHOUT this 300 rule.

also, there is more than one way to increase your stats by one without recieving blessings. it's called invading and dueling. you can get 50 demi points in a day by doing that. it's pretty easy to do when you're winning 98% of the time.

now when i reach level 200 or something and getting tired of logging in twice a day, i may build up my stamina and energy so i only have to log in once a day. but by that time, my attack is so high, i can afford to do it.

so for newbies, i like my strategy better. it prepares your character for the long haul and easyier to get on top of the leader boards when attacking monsters which means better loot.

Lord Dufduf
05-24-2010, 12:28 AM
i don't agree at all with the 300 rule and here is why....

i just started playing about a month ago. ....

so. i highly disagree with the 300 rule UNLESS a player only logs in once a day.



Well thank you for your response. But all you said was already answered in the guide. In addition it will also take you over 4 years to complete all quest and achievements. Those are SPs just sitting there NOT in your profile.

Yes you will be big and bad for your level. But I wrote a 9 page word doc explaining why that is only of a limited value, it's good, don't get me wrong, but I'm preaching a way that you do sacrifice being the baddest dude on the block, for a while, 6-8 months. But then any one who follow this 300 will crush you in the end, it's a mathematical certainly.

You've only been playing a month, when you reach level 300 and I'm level 4000, we'll see how bad you are.

Happy hunting.

Lord Dufduf
05-24-2010, 12:52 AM
A note to all.

I find it a bit of ironic timing that I write this (flying in the face of conventional (PVP) logic) at the same time a mile stone was reached. The first player to ever reach level 2000, Pegasus.

So do you think he put his SPs into att/def or eng/stm? Sure he's heavy on the CC (Credit Card), I don't care about that, more power to him. But here is the thing, for months and months people been pumping up their BSI and spending time on the forum telling others to pump up their BSI (slow leveling). Arguing back and forth about who's got the biggest BSI and the such, and he's been quietly pulling away from you all in levels. Did he ever come down to the forum and correct the error. No, never, at least not to my knowledge. He let you all slow level yourselves into extinction. All the while he power leveled. I don't know for sure but I heard his attack is at 5000.

Do you believe me now ????

Droidlover
05-24-2010, 02:08 AM
Your guide is kind of a slap to all pvp. Because, a pvp wants to be good from the beginning! We have already said that they are calculating, but that calculation begins from the start, not 50 or 100 levels into the game. Everyone also seems to be eliminating the dominance of defense. For me, attack is not the unlimited stat. Defense is! Yes it only gives me .7 when I go after someone, but that is much better when someone comes after me. It is great for fending off all comers. Hardly anyone my level has been able to beat me. My BSI is 6.8 and I agree that 7 is probably an ideal BSI. Although anything above a 7, I will consider commendable and worth bragging about. How many of you can say that probably half of your BP's have come from others coming after you...and breaking their nose! Hail be to the Defensive PvP!! The game is not about doing it as fast as you can. It's about doing it however you want. For many the enjoyment of the game is about the building process from square one...not the end result! Sure you have a goal that you eventually want to get to, but how you get there can be just as important and satisfying. Don't blow by your first 100-150 levels, you'll miss half the fun!

Lord Dufduf
05-24-2010, 02:35 AM
For many the enjoyment of the game is about the building process from square one...not the end result! Sure you have a goal that you eventually want to get to, but how you get there can be just as important and satisfying. Don't blow by your first 100-150 levels, you'll miss half the fun!

I couldn't agree with you more. And as much fun as you have getting those defense points, others have that much fun getting those levels behind them (and the SP added to them), yet still others enjoy the glass canon 1000 attack 1 defense. I stated several times do what makes the game fun for you.

I simply provided the beginner with an algorithm. A recipe is the most common example of an algorithm. I have never in my life follow a recipe exactly as written (cooking fine, baking a disaster). CA is cooking. Not baking. Add a little extra jalapeno, it's all good.

Artanis ver.2
05-24-2010, 02:49 AM
I started out mainly going by BSI, but now at a level a bit over 150, 120 en/stam just stinks. I'm tired of playing this thing before work everyday, and turning the computer on the moment I get back from work. I'm going for 300 en/stam so I can just sit down ONCE in the evening and have a little FUN with the game, with all of those points to use up. I realize I'll also level up a bit faster too.

I also know that if I had read this when I first began I'd have alot easier time reaching those numbers. :( For at least the next 8 level ups, everything from level up and quests is going into energy, and a little stam. Will pray to whatever demi opens up a quest for me sooner though, except for Aurora, which I'll never pray to again.

It's amusing to see people bounce everyday, but the novelty wears off. When you hit the gaunlet you are going to lose anyway. It's not like PvP means you have any skill anyway, it's just a click game. Being good at PvP means you have played the game longer, that's IT. There is no real skill involved and there is nothing to brag about. It's not like some game where you can snipe people from impressive distances, or have great dodging skills. You just CLICK. The real fun is getting those rare items, just for the sake of getting them. (because we know they make little difference in your attack/def power vs. monster or human.)

labalaba
05-24-2010, 03:01 AM
Im feeling the 300 rule is more appropriate for a hybrid,
neither monster hunters or pvp will follow it.
Even for a hybrid, Im only aiming 240/240 eng/stam by level 300.

I have a hardcore PvP fan stalking me everyday, he's level 137 King
and can easily beat me (level 180+) with his 1200+/50+ att/def.
As hybrid, I can't beat him back, 890+ (his def score) vs 885+ (my att score).

Easier rule is to have 120/60 eng/stam and 50/50 att/def before
deciding whichever route you want to take. 60 stam should be enough
to do the daily demis, and 120 energy to get Lotus orb.

igtenos
05-24-2010, 04:34 AM
Im feeling the 300 rule is more appropriate for a hybrid,
neither monster hunters or pvp will follow it.
Even for a hybrid, Im only aiming 240/240 eng/stam by level 300.

I have a hardcore PvP fan stalking me everyday, he's level 137 King
and can easily beat me (level 180+) with his 1200+/50+ att/def.
As hybrid, I can't beat him back, 890+ (his def score) vs 885+ (my att score).

Easier rule is to have 120/60 eng/stam and 50/50 att/def before
deciding whichever route you want to take. 60 stam should be enough
to do the daily demis, and 120 energy to get Lotus orb.
I think 120/120 energy/stam would be more ideal as it gives you 10 hours recharge for both stats. As for attack/defense, 200 is enough to hit the first major 'bumps' for attack & defense on monsters.

But yeah, I agree the 300 rule seems more appropriate for a hybrid.

Ahmulag Ra
05-24-2010, 05:06 AM
A note to all.

I find it a bit of ironic timing that I write this (flying in the face of conventional (PVP) logic) at the same time a mile stone was reached. The first player to ever reach level 2000, Pegasus.

So do you think he put his SPs into att/def or eng/stm? Sure he's heavy on the CC (Credit Card), I don't care about that, more power to him. But here is the thing, for months and months people been pumping up their BSI and spending time on the forum telling others to pump up their BSI (slow leveling). Arguing back and forth about who's got the biggest BSI and the such, and he's been quietly pulling away from you all in levels. Did he ever come down to the forum and correct the error. No, never, at least not to my knowledge. He let you all slow level yourselves into extinction. All the while he power leveled. I don't know for sure but I heard his attack is at 5000.

Do you believe me now ????


Your posts are becoming more erratic and highlight that you fail to appreciate that there is not a single way of playing this game, nor is your idea the best way.

You claim that by the time my PvP build hits 300, you would be level 4000 - are you smoking crack? You'd need to spend even more than Pegasus to achieve that, and if you are spending hundreds, thousands of dollars from your credit card, I don't give a monkey's if you beat me in PvP - it's not like it's a fair fight.

If, on the other hand, you think you can powerlevel to 500 then switch and start building your attack/defense and suddenly make yourself into a winner in PvP, you are sorely mistaken and time will show you that (as you seem to ignore those who are telling you this).

Levelling in this game is a red herring. It nets you 5 skill points. If you want to PvP, those 5 skill points are required nearly every level to keep you competitive - you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same sweet spot. With my FB account, I would be happy to level only once a week. Why do I need to level? The only thing waiting for me at higher levels is the gauntlet. Again - why do I need to level?

More importantly, I win defensively 5 - 6 times a day. Had I lost any of those battles, it would most likely have resulted in me being chained, therefore amounting to losing 50-60 times a day. As it is, I have only lost to 6 individuals since I started. Following your '300' approach, I would perhaps be level 500 by now, and I would have thousands of losses on my battle records.

You might not care about that, but the entire point of the game, which you seem to be failing to appreciate, is that there are multiple ways to play, and multiple personal goals a player can set themselves.

It's a matter of preference, not of fact.

revdjweb
05-24-2010, 05:48 AM
While I too am PvP oriented I'd like to put my two cents in here.


If, on the other hand, you think you can powerlevel to 500 then switch and start building your attack/defense and suddenly make yourself into a winner in PvP, you are sorely mistaken and time will show you that (as you seem to ignore those who are telling you this).
I think this is both true and false. Some of it falls under the 'if at first you don't succeed then redefine success'. I see a lot of talk of hybrids with mediocre to bad BSIs all proud of themselves for making Earl or even Duke. For them this is a major success using the ooze principle of quantity over quality.

Levelling in this game is a red herring. It nets you 5 skill points. If you want to PvP, those 5 skill points are required nearly every level to keep you competitive - you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same sweet spot. With my FB account, I would be happy to level only once a week. Why do I need to level? The only thing waiting for me at higher levels is the gauntlet. Again - why do I need to level?
Let me defend the OP here. Leveling also nets you a complete energy/stamina refill and quite often that energy translates into several more SPs from quests. So gaining a level almost certainly is worth more than 5 SPs.


More importantly, I win defensively 5 - 6 times a day. Had I lost any of those battles, it would most likely have resulted in me being chained, therefore amounting to losing 50-60 times a day. As it is, I have only lost to 6 individuals since I started. Following your '300' approach, I would perhaps be level 500 by now, and I would have thousands of losses on my battle records.
Here I agree with you. The OP is recommending several phases of specialized development while players like us prefer to be tough enough all along.

labalaba
05-24-2010, 06:07 AM
A note to all.

I find it a bit of ironic timing that I write this (flying in the face of conventional (PVP) logic) at the same time a mile stone was reached. The first player to ever reach level 2000, Pegasus.

So do you think he put his SPs into att/def or eng/stm? Sure he's heavy on the CC (Credit Card), I don't care about that, more power to him. But here is the thing, for months and months people been pumping up their BSI and spending time on the forum telling others to pump up their BSI (slow leveling). Arguing back and forth about who's got the biggest BSI and the such, and he's been quietly pulling away from you all in levels. Did he ever come down to the forum and correct the error. No, never, at least not to my knowledge. He let you all slow level yourselves into extinction. All the while he power leveled. I don't know for sure but I heard his attack is at 5000.

Do you believe me now ????

If you're giving advice on how to become a level 1000 acolyte
and reaching ppl 900 levels below like he did then it's a crap advice!
Yea, that's the REAL reason he didn't bother to post in here.
FYI, he pumps to 2000+ because there are ppl who actually
manage to defeat him on the Arena, so the credit doesn't
really goes to him, he's the poor fellow that needs to open his
wallet to stay standing, I'd feel more sorry than proud. Anyone
above 500+ that needs to go down hundreds of levels to kick
someone really doesn't deserve their rank.

Sooner or later, you'll want to rank up and that's when you
realize you should do it BEFORE the gauntlet.

Lord Dufduf
05-24-2010, 10:28 AM
I started out mainly going by BSI, but now at a level a bit over 150, 120 en/stam just stinks. I'm tired of playing this thing before work everyday, and turning the computer on the moment I get back from work. I'm going for 300 en/stam so I can just sit down ONCE in the evening and have a little FUN with the game, with all of those points to use up. I realize I'll also level up a bit faster too.

I also know that if I had read this when I first began I'd have alot easier time reaching those numbers. :(

This guide was wrote for you. Sorry it's a little late in your case. But you are really going to love it. Blow all your eng/stam go to the store watch a movie, log on, level, repeat. Use that extra power to obtain favor points from multiple monsters, and do not use them for random chances. If you want to level more, then lopsided the build on purpose for a while in eng/stm. So 10 FP refill will be a big bang, and you will level again. This is my current keep (see attach: 4 dragons, 1 sea, Ice, Bahmut). Most of the dragons are small they are from a private slayer group so I don't want to show the names. I have 6mill on Ice, 6 mill on Bahamut, a couple of 100,000 on the rest. It does help to level.




Your posts are becoming more erratic and highlight that you fail to appreciate that there is not a single way of playing this game, nor is your idea the best way.

You claim that by the time my PvP build hits 300, you would be level 4000 - are you smoking crack? ....


..... is that there are multiple ways to play, and multiple personal goals a player can set themselves.

It's a matter of preference, not of fact.


Not crack, glue. More colors.

The 4000 is known as an exaggerated premise. It is NOT a true statement it is a statement that PROVES that there is a cut off point. An example would be gun control. Some one says, "I feel there should be NO gun control what so ever." I state then let's ALL own a nuclear missiles. Obviously that's ridiculous. But then should we all own tanks. How about Bazookas (for deer hunting). It proves the original false and proves there is a cut off somewhere, it does NOT prove what that cuff off is. It just proves there is one. It prove that the leveler will win. One day. It doesn't state when or that it will be easy. level 4000 VS 300; 8000 VS 300; 20,000 VS 300. The point isn't the level value.


" you fail to appreciate that there is not a single way of playing this game..."

I in fact stated several times and here again play the way you enjoy !!!!
It's a game, have fun. You like level 151 so much you camp out there for 3 weeks, enjoy.




....
Let me defend the OP here. Leveling also nets you a complete energy/stamina refill and quite often that energy translates into several more SPs from quests. So gaining a level almost certainly is worth more than 5 SPs.


Here I agree with you. The OP is recommending several phases of specialized development while players like us prefer to be tough enough all along.


What more needs to be said, but thank you.



If you're giving advice on how to become a level 1000 acolyte


So a guy with 400 energy, 400 stamina, 600 attack, 300-400 defense, will wind up a acolyte? I stated minimum of 300, and then recommended a intermediary build as the one above, as well as others. Before you finally decide on your final form (Of course PVPer decide that early and stick to it). You will NOT be the ultimate dueler. But you will gain a whole lot by sacrificing that title.

Dr Devious
05-24-2010, 11:36 AM
it's no accident that this forum has so many pvp players on it, what else is there to do when you only level twice a week? and there's no point in having the best bsi if your not going to shout about it, a hardcore pvp build will take over a year to reach the gauntlet it took me 6 weeks, so next time you read about someone who can beat players a 100 levels higher don't think their build is the best because pvp builds that started when i did will never beat me in a years time,

EpiQC
05-24-2010, 02:37 PM
In summation, a good guide but it would be better if it played to its' strengths and didn't get sidetracked trying denigrate other approaches to character building.

It's not trying to denigrate PvP in general, just the old school train of thought which is definitely outdated. Because most of us are actually interested in PvP, but we prefer to build on a strong base with long-term plans instead of adopting the far from optimal old school way of playing.

CannibalCory
05-24-2010, 03:12 PM
[...] but we prefer to build on a strong base with long-term plans instead of adopting the far from optimal old school way of playing.

Here I have to disagree. What kind of "optimal" are you talking about? PvP? I'll assume so.

The lens PvP looks through at Castle Age is irrespective of time. That is to say, "let's ignore time". That means rather than comparing a longitudinal view (two guys start at the same time, one PvP and the other this "300" way, who is going to win in a year?), they compare in a cross-sectional view. Again, that is to say they compare with other people in their level, who may or may not have taken the same amount of time to get there.

With this lens, the optimal PvP build would be to wind up with 120 energy after praying to Ambrosia fully so one could acquire the Lotus orb, and 60 stamina after praying to Azeron fully so one could earn all 10 free demi points through battling, and then spend the rest of the gajillion of SP's in attack/defense (I don't really know the demi gods names but you get the idea). I guarantee that for their level, it will be the most hardcore and optimized build for their level.

In fact, it's so optimal for PvP because the maximum amount of SPs can go into attack/defense, and the absolute minimum for Stam/Energy so they can barely pass all the quests and get those SPs as well.

Again, let me remind you that this PvP view is with the assumption that the world will never end, the internet will never crash, and Castle Age will be around for the next 1000 years or so. That is, it is irrespective of time. It's the most optimized way to PvP.

Now if you get two players going with the plan above (using their FPs and such in the same ways such as refills), the only determining factor that determines how strong they are is, in fact, time. The loser in this case can only hope the guy that's beating him into the ground will stop playing for exactly the same amount of time as was elapsed between their two start times. That way he can catch up. Remember this idea, I'll mark it with a nice asterisk.*

That's where this "300" build comes in, it essentially says: "Hell, I can't hope for that! I'll blow by levels faster than he does, gain SPs, and get to his level!" but not realizing that the "300" build, when at this PvP dude's level, has wasted 660 SPs or more depending on prayers (180 for Energy and 480 for Stam) in the process, while the hardcore PvPer has those in his Attack/Defense.

Will they surpass the PvPer's level? Probably, but the "hardcore optimized" PvP view comes with the idea that if you're one level lower than your fellow "hardcore optimized" PvP opponent, you will lose to him. But can (depending on how SPs are spent) defeat a majority of those same people as his level, and can always crush everyone, even those "hardcore optomized" below his level. Because of the nice asterisk * idea.

So the fact that the "300" build can lose to a "hardcore optimized" PvP build that's a lower level than it means it isn't really optimized.

The bottom line is: How do you view time? What kind of price do you wanna pay for it?

(Theres a lot of assumptions in my hypothetical scenarios -- same items, heroes, etc. but when you deal with theorists you gotta go to that extreme :P )

I know this is a long post, but it isn't meant to be reprimanding in nature or anything. And the reason I quote you, EpiQC, is because thanks to you I was able to get my noggin's gears a-movin. :)

Edited for emphasis.

icydiablo
05-24-2010, 03:29 PM
To me this guide is for those who wish to plan for long term.
But to me Energy and Stamina are the variables concerning what u wish to be, PVM,PVP,Questing...

Ya maybe PVMer can use 300 rules, but then PVPers might not be interested in too much energy since they can lvl through stamina or Questor might only be questing his whole castle age life thinking is Mafia war.

Anyway the 300 energy and 300 stamina boils down to how much u need the extra experience gain when u lvled up when compared to a say 100 energy and 100 stam user.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-24-2010, 04:06 PM
My stats are:

Lvl. 306

300 Max Energy -- Do more quests
300 Max Stamina -- Launch attacks! (cost 2)
1200 Attack -- Offensive might
439 Defense -- Defense power

I'm very happy with this build. 300 Sta and 300 Energy are good stats for PvP and monster hunter.

I dont see it. At level 225, I can beat you. Even though for the last lil bit I HAVE been concentrating on beefing up stam and energy a bit because my leveling is slower than I like. Had you put only 200 into stamina, you would be able to beat me. And I STILL am able to reach the sweet spot in ANY monster I choose to battle, then move to another. I also have the best in my slots, save the DTG and the HoDP, which are random drops that I cant seem to get no matter the damage I put into those respective monster battles.

Dr Devious
05-25-2010, 12:30 AM
Here I have to disagree. What kind of "optimal" are you talking about? PvP? I'll assume so.

The lens PvP looks through at Castle Age is irrespective of time. That is to say, "let's ignore time". That means rather than comparing a longitudinal view (two guys start at the same time, one PvP and the other this "300" way, who is going to win in a year?), they compare in a cross-sectional view. Again, that is to say they compare with other people in their level, who may or may not have taken the same amount of time to get there.

With this lens, the optimal PvP build would be to wind up with 120 energy after praying to Ambrosia fully so one could acquire the Lotus orb, and 60 stamina after praying to Azeron fully so one could earn all 10 free demi points through battling, and then spend the rest of the gajillion of SP's in attack/defense (I don't really know the demi gods names but you get the idea). I guarantee that for their level, it will be the most hardcore and optimized build for their level.

In fact, it's so optimal for PvP because the maximum amount of SPs can go into attack/defense, and the absolute minimum for Stam/Energy so they can barely pass all the quests and get those SPs as well.

Again, let me remind you that this PvP view is with the assumption that the world will never end, the internet will never crash, and Castle Age will be around for the next 1000 years or so. That is, it is irrespective of time. It's the most optimized way to PvP.

Now if you get two players going with the plan above (using their FPs and such in the same ways such as refills), the only determining factor that determines how strong they are is, in fact, time. The loser in this case can only hope the guy that's beating him into the ground will stop playing for exactly the same amount of time as was elapsed between their two start times. That way he can catch up. Remember this idea, I'll mark it with a nice asterisk.*

That's where this "300" build comes in, it essentially says: "Hell, I can't hope for that! I'll blow by levels faster than he does, gain SPs, and get to his level!" but not realizing that the "300" build, when at this PvP dude's level, has wasted 660 SPs or more depending on prayers (180 for Energy and 480 for Stam) in the process, while the hardcore PvPer has those in his Attack/Defense.

Will they surpass the PvPer's level? Probably, but the "hardcore optimized" PvP view comes with the idea that if you're one level lower than your fellow "hardcore optimized" PvP opponent, you will lose to him. But can (depending on how SPs are spent) defeat a majority of those same people as his level, and can always crush everyone, even those "hardcore optomized" below his level. Because of the nice asterisk * idea.

So the fact that the "300" build can lose to a "hardcore optimized" PvP build that's a lower level than it means it isn't really optimized.

The bottom line is: How do you view time? What kind of price do you wanna pay for it?

(Theres a lot of assumptions in my hypothetical scenarios -- same items, heroes, etc. but when you deal with theorists you gotta go to that extreme :P )

I know this is a long post, but it isn't meant to be reprimanding in nature or anything. And the reason I quote you, EpiQC, is because thanks to you I was able to get my noggin's gears a-movin. :)

Edited for emphasis.

you say energy and stamina is a wast? thanks to my 1300 energy and 400 stamina i can farm a lot of fp and the best units and items in the game and thanks to refills i can level quick, i don't even need to think about bsi as I've already hit the gauntlet i'm level 326 started playing on the 4 April,

CannibalCory
05-25-2010, 12:51 AM
you say energy and stamina is a wast? thanks to my 1300 energy and 400 stamina i can farm a lot of fp and the best units and items in the game and thanks to refills i can level quick, i don't even need to think about bsi as I've already hit the gauntlet i'm level 326 started playing on the 4 April,

Did you read what I said, or did you read what you wanted to read?

Regardless, you answered my question by saying yes you do value time. Now imagine someone who doesn't really and is Level 326 just like you with 120 energy and 60 stam, and he bought fps as you may have for refills and whatnot (Credit card is just as legit as farming, and a more apt choice for said hypothetical person). His 1860 extra skill points that are in his attack/defense means he can throw, at worst, 1302 extra points worth of attack at you {1860*.7} or, again at worst, have 1302 extra points of defense against you.

Basically, such a person would have a BSI 5.7 points higher than yours. You'd need every single one of your 501 army units to be 2.599 points stronger than every single one of his 501 army units. (Whether you attack or defend, whichever is your style). And that's the best case scenario in your case just to tie. {1302/501}

If you're that confident about yourself, congratulations.

EDIT:

I believe this was the line you were referring to:

That's where this "300" build comes in, it essentially says: "Hell, I can't hope for that! I'll blow by levels faster than he does, gain SPs, and get to his level!" but not realizing that the "300" build, when at this PvP dude's level, has wasted 660 SPs or more depending on prayers (180 for Energy and 480 for Stam) in the process, while the hardcore PvPer has those in his Attack/Defense.
Let me clarify: In strict PvP terms, any SPs put beyond 120 Energy and 60 Stamina are a waste in that they are extra energy/stam not critical for attaining more SPs/demi points, and thus by putting points in there start losing to the "hardcore PvP" builds of their same level I mentioned earlier. It is not maximally efficient in terms of SP use. Is it maximally efficient in terms of time? No, but that's because (as I tried to emphasize in my earlier post, the "hardcore PvP" build does not care about how long it takes to get up there.

Dr Devious
05-25-2010, 02:27 AM
Did you read what I said, or did you read what you wanted to read?

Regardless, you answered my question by saying yes you do value time. Now imagine someone who doesn't really and is Level 326 just like you with 120 energy and 60 stam, and he bought fps as you may have for refills and whatnot (Credit card is just as legit as farming, and a more apt choice for said hypothetical person). His 1860 extra skill points that are in his attack/defense means he can throw, at worst, 1302 extra points worth of attack at you {1860*.7} or, again at worst, have 1302 extra points of defense against you.

Basically, such a person would have a BSI 5.7 points higher than yours. You'd need every single one of your 501 army units to be 2.599 points stronger than every single one of his 501 army units. (Whether you attack or defend, whichever is your style). And that's the best case scenario in your case just to tie. {1302/501}

If you're that confident about yourself, congratulations.

EDIT:

I believe this was the line you were referring to:

Let me clarify: In strict PvP terms, any SPs put beyond 120 Energy and 60 Stamina are a waste in that they are extra energy/stam not critical for attaining more SPs/demi points, and thus by putting points in there start losing to the "hardcore PvP" builds of their same level I mentioned earlier. It is not maximally efficient in terms of SP use. Is it maximally efficient in terms of time? No, but that's because (as I tried to emphasize in my earlier post, the "hardcore PvP" build does not care about how long it takes to get up there.

pvp builds can't use refills at my level cc or not, with 120 energy ten refills would match my energy then they would need another 7 or 8 to level up, well it's more then that because they wouldn't have the xp from my 400 stamina,

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 05:59 AM
It's not trying to denigrate PvP in general, just the old school train of thought which is definitely outdated. Because most of us are actually interested in PvP, but we prefer to build on a strong base with long-term plans instead of adopting the far from optimal old school way of playing.


Here I have to disagree. What kind of "optimal" are you talking about? PvP? I'll assume so.

The lens PvP looks through at Castle Age is irrespective of time. That is to say, "let's ignore time". That means rather than comparing a longitudinal view (two guys start at the same time, one PvP and the other this "300" way, who is going to win in a year?), they compare in a cross-sectional view. Again, that is to say they compare with other people in their level, who may or may not have taken the same amount of time to get there.


He said "far from optimal", so while you had to disagree, you actually agreed with his statement.

EpiQC
05-25-2010, 06:06 AM
With this lens, the optimal PvP build would be to wind up with 120 energy after praying to Ambrosia fully so one could acquire the Lotus orb, and 60 stamina after praying to Azeron fully so one could earn all 10 free demi points through battling, and then spend the rest of the gajillion of SP's in attack/defense (I don't really know the demi gods names but you get the idea).
In that case, the 10 points of stamina you start with and 102 energy are enough. You regenerate 288 e/s points per day, so you can easily gather enough demi points through battles to meet your daily quota; and you can get +18 energy with Elizabeth Lione for Lotus' quest. But if you're disregarding the time factor, then you don't need to pray to any other demi power than Malekus/Corvintheus, since you will automatically unlock all demi quests.


I guarantee that for their level, it will be the most hardcore and optimized build for their level.
Basing one's power on his level is even less relevant than basing it on his total play time. There's no point in being the strongest player for your level, unless you intend to stay at or under level 79 forever. You're forgetting about the gauntlet. The gauntlet is one of the major reasons, along with FP loots & refills, why it is most optimal to plan ahead and build on a strong base. The 300 rule isn't even good enough for this. Wasting 600 points between attack and defense before your energy and stamina have both reached their most optimal amount (2000/1000 respectively), with generals' special abilities when equipped, is only good for short/mid-term hybrids.


Again, let me remind you that this PvP view is with the assumption that the world will never end, the internet will never crash, and Castle Age will be around for the next 1000 years or so. That is, it is irrespective of time. It's the most optimized way to PvP.
You're also assuming that the game is never going to change. With a strong energy and a strong stamina pool, you can adapt to pretty much anything, because they're the two resources used for practically everything. This is why the old school train of thought is outdated. When dragons were first introduced, I assume most players didn't even have more than 50 stamina. And before Lotus, I assume most players didn't have at least 120 energy. So some players have adapted somewhat (the new rule of 120/120), but that's still far from optimal. And it's true that it can take a lot of time to modify a 6 months old build and I understand that. But new players shouldn't come to the forums and take advice from those old school players and attempt to follow their footsteps. Because it won't work, as you wrote, unless the older players quit. New players, and this guide is for them, should build their character based on the current game features, not those from 8 months ago.


The bottom line is: How do you view time? What kind of price do you wanna pay for it?
Time is the base for everything in Castle Age. Energy/stamina timers, health timers, demi blessings, demi points per day, time remaining to defeat bosses, etc. You can't say it's a non-factor, because it is one of the most important ones. Power levelers capitalize on that aspect, by investing tons of skill points into energy and stamina, which allows them to skip hours and hours of waiting for regeneration. Plus, they can farm FPs like no other, so they can keep their leveling speed even if they start investing into other stats, such as attack and defense. And thanks to how the gauntlet works, they'll be able to dominate all those old school PvPers one day. And they won't be able to do anything about it unless they get their CC because of their slow leveling speed and non-ability to farm FPs like a power leveler.

Dunadin
05-25-2010, 06:21 AM
you say energy and stamina is a wast? thanks to my 1300 energy and 400 stamina i can farm a lot of fp and the best units and items in the game and thanks to refills i can level quick, i don't even need to think about bsi as I've already hit the gauntlet i'm level 326 started playing on the 4 April,


Ok ... we are supposed to believe you went from level 1 to level 326 in 7 weeks??

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 06:41 AM
You're also assuming that the game is never going to change. With a strong energy and a strong stamina pool, you can adapt to pretty much anything, because they're the two resources used for practically everything.

This^^^

The build so rigid and inflexible, can not adapt to changes. It has no resources to choose a different way, so it is, therefore, doomed to follow the path it started. It can't bend and will eventually brake. Sooner or later, the game world will change to that extent that entities that can't evolve will just drop out. The game is picking up a momentum, new world monsters spawn every two weeks ( not to mention that for PvP builds with really low stam, Chase is still unobtainable), all of them demand energy as well as stamina etc...

It is highly unlikely that devs will slow this down - this is current direction of the game. If you chose to go the other way - you go against the world - it can not end well for you. You can read on forum that some of older players are giving up already - which is a shame. I think the game became to unforgiving for them, and that they just could't morph into something new. Not their fault , if they started early on, and did too good what was lucrative at the time. I think that game has been unjust to some, but... That is the problem we can not solve.

And one question I always wanted to ask: one loves CA, plays it for months.
With 120 energy, ~150 stamina (plus regeneration), leveling every 3rd day... how much does one actually play? One chains and then hides until tommorow, when does one assists on weapons, CTA's, returns favors, haves fun?

Dave O
05-25-2010, 07:53 AM
The build so rigid and inflexible, can not adapt to changes. It has no resources to choose a different way, so it is, therefore, doomed to follow the path it started. It can't bend and will eventually brake. Sooner or later, the game world will change to that extent that entities that can't evolve will just drop out. The game is picking up a momentum, new world monsters spawn every two weeks ( not to mention that for PvP builds with really low stam, Chase is still unobtainable), all of them demand energy as well as stamina etc...

I got General Chase with <50 Stamna ... wasn't very hard really. Getting Chase is only a matter of collecting battle hearts don't need any stamina pool at all for that.


It is highly unlikely that devs will slow this down - this is current direction of the game. If you chose to go the other way - you go against the world - it can not end well for you. You can read on forum that some of older players are giving up already - which is a shame. I think the game became to unforgiving for them, and that they just could't morph into something new. Not their fault , if they started early on, and did too good what was lucrative at the time. I think that game has been unjust to some, but... That is the problem we can not solve.

hmm ... unsure of what you are referencing here ... but things change people come and people go -- it is the nature of the beast. I've played a multitude of fb games: Combat Strike, Warbook, Mafia Wars, and now Castle Age. In CS I got to the top and decided I had enough; WB was too lopsided for my taste; MW just got boring and CA stole me away from it.


And one question I always wanted to ask: one loves CA, plays it for months. With 120 energy, ~150 stamina (plus regeneration), leveling every 3rd day... how much does one actually play? One chains and then hides until tommorow, when does one assists on weapons, CTA's, returns favors, haves fun?

Don't have anywhere near 150 Stamina -- clearly out of the realm of dedicated PvP there. ;)

How much do I play? about 2-3X per day, for about 15-20 minutes -- it is enough, I have other things to do too. ;)

{I actually wonder how you burn all that Energy and Stamina -- the new buttons help, but it would have driven me bonkers.}

Well, I don't chain (and others don't chain me, heh). I don't hide -- why loose all those BP's from those willing to test my conviction?

I assist on weapons all the time -- only takes 1 Stamina. The 100 Assists was actually one of my first Achievements.

I generally don't summon the bigger critters, so no need to return favors. Plenty of other's supply a good sampling of critters for me to select from.

Fun? It is all fun, why else would I even bother? :)

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 08:08 AM
{I actually wonder how you burn all that Energy and Stamina -- the new buttons help, but it would have driven me bonkers.}
I am online often - and it doesn't take a lot of time, when you find a suitable target.
I'll address only this, since the rest of the points you made are fine by me if they work for you ( except Chase - not to often I see him in PvPers keeps. I don't say it is impossible, just to much of a sacrifice. Never mind :) )


Fun? It is all fun, why else would I even bother? :)
No prob. I just asked. Now I know.

Dave O
05-25-2010, 08:27 AM
...( except Chase - not to often I see him in PvPers keeps. I don't say it is impossible, just to much of a sacrifice. Never mind :) )


ah ...

I am a defensive build, so getting Gen Chase was pretty high on my priority list. Being Defensive, I usually attack via Invasion and Chase is a big boost for that as well. I spend my FPs on the monthly Generals rather than gamble on the chests -- so Gen Chase was the only army boosting General I could hope to get.

I expect those PvP players who opt for Duelling would not be so keen on acquiring Gen Chase -- they are also more likely to make use of hiding (focussing their PvP points on Attack) and would not need him for defense either.

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 08:54 AM
Just to be clear here Dave: I didn't pin all the attributes to every PvP-er.
I am well aware that not all of you hide ( I don't mind ) or bookmark. I wish you well with your build if it suits your playing preferences.
God knows, we've seen enough advices of "get your BSI to ~5, then add to a/d every lvl, or you'll be to weak" type... or "specialize, don't be jack of all trades - you'll suck at everything", so I won't preach high stam/energy build as superior, but I do think it is more adaptable to what ever set of rules game brings tomorrow.
We'll come to the tavern in a year ( Sandman style ), see where the game is and how we fare ;)

Lord Dufduf
05-25-2010, 10:04 AM
it's no accident that this forum has so many pvp players on it, what else is there to do when you only level twice a week? ...


Ok that got me to crack up out loud. LOL.




But new players shouldn't come to the forums and take advice from those old school players and attempt to follow their footsteps. Because it won't work, as you wrote, unless the older players quit. New players, and this guide is for them, should build their character based on the current game features, not those from 8 months ago.

I think I heard a chorus of angels singing, "Hallelujah" off in the distance.

Dr Devious
05-25-2010, 12:38 PM
Ok ... we are supposed to believe you went from level 1 to level 326 in 7 weeks??

believe what you want

Total Income $195,185,000 / hour
Total Upkeep -$14,955,530/ hour
Cash Flow $180,229,470/ hour

Quests Completed 18960
Battles Won 389
Battles Lost 314
Times eliminated 6
Times you eliminated an enemy 1

Patrick D
05-25-2010, 01:06 PM
Ok ... we are supposed to believe you went from level 1 to level 326 in 7 weeks??

It't definitely not BS, you can even do it in 3 weeks or less if you have enough time on your hands. And you don't need a CC for it either, just time and efficient spending of energy and stamina.

CannibalCory
05-25-2010, 02:24 PM
In that case, the 10 points of stamina you start with and 102 energy are enough. You regenerate 288 e/s points per day, so you can easily gather enough demi points through battles to meet your daily quota; and you can get +18 energy with Elizabeth Lione for Lotus' quest. But if you're disregarding the time factor, then you don't need to pray to any other demi power than Malekus/Corvintheus, since you will automatically unlock all demi quests.

Thanks, I didn't wanna do math when I originally wrote all that up so the build I mentioned would only need to use 92 Sps for that energy.



Basing one's power on his level is even less relevant than basing it on his total play time. There's no point in being the strongest player for your level, unless you intend to stay at or under level 79 forever. You're forgetting about the gauntlet. The gauntlet is one of the major reasons, along with FP loots & refills, why it is most optimal to plan ahead and build on a strong base. The 300 rule isn't even good enough for this. Wasting 600 points between attack and defense before your energy and stamina have both reached their most optimal amount (2000/1000 respectively), with generals' special abilities when equipped, is only good for short/mid-term hybrids.

Right, but most optimal in terms of what? If you couldn't tell from my first post, I was talking strictly on PvP terms. Being the best at fighting other players. The small benefits monster hunting brings is expensive in the PvP point of view I outlined before, as it loses those valuable SPs to energy and stam.



You're also assuming that the game is never going to change.

Correct, again thanks for pointing that out. Unless the game mechanics surrounding PvP changes (again, 'cause I was strictly viewing it in PvP terms) then I don't see why it'd be far from optimal.



Time is the base for everything in Castle Age. Energy/stamina timers, health timers, demi blessings, demi points per day, time remaining to defeat bosses, etc. You can't say it's a non-factor, because it is one of the most important ones. Power levelers capitalize on that aspect, by investing tons of skill points into energy and stamina, which allows them to skip hours and hours of waiting for regeneration. Plus, they can farm FPs like no other, so they can keep their leveling speed even if they start investing into other stats, such as attack and defense. And thanks to how the gauntlet works, they'll be able to dominate all those old school PvPers one day. And they won't be able to do anything about it unless they get their CC because of their slow leveling speed and non-ability to farm FPs like a power leveler.

I think you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say. But this is my point: In PvP, if you lose to someone with a higher level than you then it doesn't really mean you're weak in any way since theoretically (as I outlined in my first post) (s)he could beat you if you did the 120/60 old school "hardcore PvP" build.

So congrats to the power leveler. They can beat people lower level than them, just like the "hardcore PvP" build. But get a "hardcore PvP" build in the power leveler's level range (through use of a lot of Fps from credit cards, which destroys many needs for time), and my money is on him.

My point, that I tried to make in my first post and obviously failed, is that the "time matters" viewpoint is not the only viewpoint. Is the build I outlined one I'd recommend for new people? No! Is it practical? No! Is it an old-school mindset? Yes!

And to go back to the question that brings on my responses in the first place:
Is it far from optimal? It depends on how you value time!
Yes, it's far from optimal if you don't want to be sitting around forever.
No, it's not far from optimal because if you don't care how long it takes to get there, when you get to a level you understand it is the strongest in PvP.

I find it slightly ironic that I've been playing for less than a month and myself don't even have this "hardcore PvP" build. I'd only attempt it if I had a sick amount of cash and was the first person to sign up for Castle Age.

So I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone in my posts, I feel like a lot of misunderstanding is arising from me explaining my model and the "hardcore PvP" build used to optimize maximally within the model.

CannibalCory
05-25-2010, 02:28 PM
Wow I'm wrecking this thread... sorry meant to hit edit. :(


He said "far from optimal", so while you had to disagree, you actually agreed with his statement.

I did not (if I read your bolded emphasis correctly). I said I'd assume he meant "far from optimal PvP". And then I said I would have to disagree with that statement with my assumed modifier.

Patrick D
05-25-2010, 02:54 PM
So congrats to the power leveler. They can beat people lower level than them, just like the "hardcore PvP" build. But get a "hardcore PvP" build in the power leveler's level range (through use of a lot of Fps from credit cards, which destroys many needs for time), and my money is on him.

But levels are meaningless, I mean who cares a hardcore PvP build of level 300 is the strongest at his own level, when a level 1200 powerleveller turned PvP kicks his ass any time of the day? Levels have no meaning once you're in the gauntlet, in case you didn't know that yet. And a hardcore PvP build will NEVER reach level 1200, he would need to purchase thousands of refills to get even close to lvl 1000. And even then the lvl 1200 dude could do the same and be lvl 3000+ while the hardcore PvP build is still struggling to get to lvl 1000. So no matter how you look at it, the powerleveller always comes out on top and will stay there forever. The hardcore PvP-er has no realistic chance at all to ever catch up.

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 03:18 PM
So congrats to the power leveler. They can beat people lower level than them, just like the "hardcore PvP" build. But get a "hardcore PvP" build in the power leveler's level range (through use of a lot of Fps from credit cards, which destroys many needs for time), and my money is on him.

Wow! You concluded that hardcore PvP build beats power leveler of the same level. This thread was serious up until now. Do you think that anyone reading this had any doubts about that? So...


But levels are meaningless, I mean who cares a hardcore PvP build of level 300 is the strongest at his own level, when a level 1200 powerleveller turned PvP kicks his ass any time of the day? Levels have no meaning once you're in the gauntlet, in case you didn't know that yet. And a hardcore PvP build will NEVER reach level 1200, he would need to purchase thousands of refills to get even close to lvl 1000. And even then the lvl 1200 dude could do the same and be lvl 3000+ while the hardcore PvP build is still struggling to get to lvl 1000. So no matter how you look at it, the powerleveller always comes out on top and will stay there forever. The hardcore PvP-er has no realistic chance at all to ever catch up.
... the answer.

riskmanager
05-25-2010, 04:54 PM
Interesting thread. While I have about 10min I'll chime in...

I consider myself a "hardcore PvPer". That being said, while it is true that a lvl 1500 or extremely high level will kick my butt given the sheer number of stat points that they would have accumulated, I really don't care. Similar to playing a game of chance, I mentally expect that to happen - as a matter of fact, I would be surprised if it didn't happen. For me the primary reason I switched over to being a PvPer relatively early in my playing career (around lvl 100-150), was because I love to see large damage per single shot AND because I thought it would be fun to see just how high of a level I could hit and win against. Also strangely enough, I'm one of those people would could live on leveling once a month. I already have very low stamina and relatively speaking, somewhat low energy and I don't ever want to add to it as I already can level once every three days if I wanted to (only lvl 251 currently so it is still "easy" to level).

As far as powerlevelers are concerned, I personally have nothing against them and hell, I may even "powerlevel" once I reach into lvl 400 or something around there for maybe 50-100 levels. It's obvious that there are two extremes that exist : PvPer versus Powerleveler and all spectrums in between. Just choose one that suits your style, enjoy and then if you want to, slowly make the switch over to the other side. It may take time, but it can be done :)

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-25-2010, 06:01 PM
But levels are meaningless, I mean who cares a hardcore PvP build of level 300 is the strongest at his own level, when a level 1200 powerleveller turned PvP kicks his ass any time of the day? Levels have no meaning once you're in the gauntlet, in case you didn't know that yet. And a hardcore PvP build will NEVER reach level 1200, he would need to purchase thousands of refills to get even close to lvl 1000. And even then the lvl 1200 dude could do the same and be lvl 3000+ while the hardcore PvP build is still struggling to get to lvl 1000. So no matter how you look at it, the powerleveller always comes out on top and will stay there forever. The hardcore PvP-er has no realistic chance at all to ever catch up.

I mean who cares a hardcore PvP build of level 300 is the strongest at his own level

Actually, I do...and in fact, I want to be the strongest at my OWN level, plus 150. Which I am, for the most part.

Levels have no meaning once you're in the gauntlet, in case you didn't know that yet.

Ahh, but heres the rub:

The gauntlet keeps moving. I have entered it 3 times so far in my playing and this next gauntlet has increased at such a rate as that it will be a couple months before I even reach it...which, by that point the likes of Pegasus and many others will reach 3 or 4.000, making it highly likely that by the time I get to 300, the gauntlet will have raised yet again, keeping me within tiered brackets, and letting me maintain my dominance while I continue to pad a/d stats, increasing my reach up margin.

AND, as a pvper, I dont much sweat the over 1000 level peeps that can reach down and smack me silly. I know that I could reach down to level 100 and smack anyone there silly also, so a loss to someone like that absolutely does not faze me. What WOULD faze me, is if someone who is level 180 smacked me silly. That would mean that someone out there is even stronger than I am, and will continue to dominate me, if I dont do something. That would entice me to slow even further to get even more stat points in even less levels than I currently do :D

And another thing that many posters in this thread appear to think, is that pvp people are stupid, and do not realize that, as they move up, they will need to up their eng/ stam stats to continue to level. We all know this. A few months ago, before there were dragons, most of us "hardcore" builds had about 40, 50 stam. That was all that was required. If we only logged in once or twice a day, we calculated how many stam was needed for our play style, and we had that many. Then dragons came out, most of us got comfortable with our defense level, and added some to it. Same with now. WHen I reached my comfort zone, I started adding stam and eng. WHen I am comfortable with my leveling speed again, I will continue my A/D stat pad. When I reach my next comfort zone, I will start padding the other stats again.

It isnt a amtter of "outdated thinking" as some here have stated, it is a matter of putting the bare minimum required in our "off stats" so that we can keep pushing our base stats. It is the exact same thinking as a PVM build, in reverse. Even a PVM player will push attack stats in order to do more damage per hit. WHy do you guys tend to think that us pvpers will attempt to play at level 350 with 40 points in stam?

CannibalCory
05-25-2010, 07:27 PM
Wow! You concluded that hardcore PvP build beats power leveler of the same level. This thread was serious up until now. Do you think that anyone reading this had any doubts about that?

Your sarcasm with the tone that "Cannibal Cory's an idiot" is not really appreciated. I've been all but trying to explain myself in a sincere manner. Yes, it sometimes comes off with "obvious" conclusions. But, the way I express my ideas includes explaining the "obvious".

I think I've said enough in this thread.

RAUKO
05-25-2010, 07:44 PM
Your sarcasm with the tone that "Cannibal Cory's an idiot" is not really appreciated. I've been all but trying to explain myself in a sincere manner. Yes, it sometimes comes off with "obvious" conclusions. But, the way I express my ideas includes explaining the "obvious".

I think I've said enough in this thread.

I wouldn't discuss anything with person I consider an idiot.
I pointed out that your statement is obvious and does not qualify as an argument. Obvious does not require explaining, unless you consider others idiots.
No offense meant. I'll use more smiles to avoid sarcastic appearance of my posts :)

jdavis6
05-25-2010, 08:39 PM
Someone may have made similiar comments already, but the posts are coming in faster than I can read right now...

Demipowers I'd recommend a rotation among all demipowers to unlock the quests. (Aurora you might skip or pray to less frequently to keep building health two much - every 9 health points will add 1 link more in a chain attack on average (losing costs 7-12 hp). So a few points added to health isn't going to hurt you much. Just don't go hog wild. The reason you want to rotate is that it will:
1 unlock more skill points quicker from demiquests
2 You will complete all demipaths quicker as you will not be wasting the demipoints you pick up from monster fights and your daily 10 from battles/raids
3 Most of the demigear is no longer best in game and the few that aren't are usually not too superior to farmable items.

Over the weekend I dusted off my Myspace account and started playing there in addition to Facebook.

I built energy to 100 quickly which has opened up plenty of quests which also is the fastest way to make money early on. Money should be split between buying 10 lot properties and buying the gear needed to open up quests. Rule of thumb - buy properties if upkeep is more than 10% of income or you have plenty of high income quests available. Quests combined with enough energy and stamina to level within a couple hours is the fastest way to gain income early on. Don't bother PvPing for money as the payout is poor -many opponents have little and your limited to about 10% of your hourly income - your better off putting the stamina into reaching at least achievement level on dragons and boss fights. You will gain property you could not otherwise afford so soon.

Skip PvP until you've built up an otherwise strong character - but don't neglect a/d points during this period. Personally I look at how often I'm winning my defends. Early on I like to build defense as it counts as .7 towards attack and I'm not actively participating in PvP at this stage. There will still be plenty of quickly obtainable skill points to add to attack when I'm ready to go active. (Do complete level 1 training so your successful defends will count towards the other levels).

Basically all level up and award stats are going to energy, stamina, and defense as indicated by where my game seems to need them. Demistats are being rotated with the lowest demipoints getting the next blessing, but I'll let the others get 1 or 2 quests ahead of aurora - I might save these for getting quick points when I'm ready to go active in PvP.

Rather than tell you this is the best way to build your character, I'd suggest the following:

Only you know what your goals are so build to reach your goals. If it looks like one stat is built more than you currently need, then add to a stat that is crimping your game. Build the stat that is causing you the most problems, unless building that stat would make your problem worse.

EpiQC
05-25-2010, 10:14 PM
So congrats to the power leveler. They can beat people lower level than them, just like the "hardcore PvP" build. But get a "hardcore PvP" build in the power leveler's level range (through use of a lot of Fps from credit cards, which destroys many needs for time), and my money is on him.

And to go back to the question that brings on my responses in the first place:
Is it far from optimal? It depends on how you value time!
Yes, it's far from optimal if you don't want to be sitting around forever.
No, it's not far from optimal because if you don't care how long it takes to get there, when you get to a level you understand it is the strongest in PvP.
The necessity to spend all that money (or time) on a free game, when the same results are achievable by using another strategy (power leveling) and not having to spend a single dollar on the game just proves how superior that strategy is. If you have to spend thousands of dollars to be able to beat me, I consider myself a winner. If you have to play for months and months more than me to be able to beat me, either because I quit or because you started playing before me, I consider myself a winner. Time is money. Power leveling, with the current game mechanics, is the most efficient and optimal way to build a character. You get more (SPs) with less (time & money). That's the very definition of optimization. Hence why this is the most optimal way of playing, and the old school mentality is far from optimal.


I find it slightly ironic that I've been playing for less than a month and myself don't even have this "hardcore PvP" build. I'd only attempt it if I had a sick amount of cash and was the first person to sign up for Castle Age.
This proves how bad the "hardcore PvP" build is for 99% of the player base. And even if you were the first person to sign up for Castle Age and had a million dollars to waste on the game, it'd still be a lot more efficient to just go the power leveling route.


As far as powerlevelers are concerned, I personally have nothing against them and hell, I may even "powerlevel" once I reach into lvl 400 or something around there for maybe 50-100 levels. It's obvious that there are two extremes that exist : PvPer versus Powerleveler and all spectrums in between. Just choose one that suits your style, enjoy and then if you want to, slowly make the switch over to the other side. It may take time, but it can be done :)
It's just way better, easier and quicker to go the power leveling route, especially if your long-term plan is PvP. It's 100x easier to make the switch from e/s to a/d as a power leveler than it is to switch from a/d to e/s as a PvPer. It's all about efficiency and building on a strong base.


AND, as a pvper, I dont much sweat the over 1000 level peeps that can reach down and smack me silly. I know that I could reach down to level 100 and smack anyone there silly also, so a loss to someone like that absolutely does not faze me. What WOULD faze me, is if someone who is level 180 smacked me silly. That would mean that someone out there is even stronger than I am, and will continue to dominate me, if I dont do something. That would entice me to slow even further to get even more stat points in even less levels than I currently do :D
Thanks again for proving just how superior power leveling is compared to the old school mentality. If by spending less, I can achieve more, then my strategy is better than yours. There's no way a level 180 is going to beat you, unless they've been playing for at least 150 days more than you. And this would only prove that given more time, one can do more. Well.. duh! But here's the beauty of power leveling: you can do more, with less! The 2000/1000 build is currently the most optimized build in the game.


And another thing that many posters in this thread appear to think, is that pvp people are stupid, and do not realize that, as they move up, they will need to up their eng/ stam stats to continue to level. We all know this. A few months ago, before there were dragons, most of us "hardcore" builds had about 40, 50 stam. That was all that was required. If we only logged in once or twice a day, we calculated how many stam was needed for our play style, and we had that many. Then dragons came out, most of us got comfortable with our defense level, and added some to it. Same with now. WHen I reached my comfort zone, I started adding stam and eng. WHen I am comfortable with my leveling speed again, I will continue my A/D stat pad. When I reach my next comfort zone, I will start padding the other stats again.
Why would I think that PvPers are stupid? I'm a PvPer after all. It's just the old school mentality that's stupid. You can't judge one's power based on his level, otherwise the only form of strategy involved is time. There's no way a 120/120 build is going to catch up with another 120/120 build if the latter had a 100 days headstart, unless he's somehow favored by the gods. It's just mathematically impossible. If you want to be better, you need a better strategy. Power leveling is the solution.


It isnt a amtter of "outdated thinking" as some here have stated, it is a matter of putting the bare minimum required in our "off stats" so that we can keep pushing our base stats. It is the exact same thinking as a PVM build, in reverse. Even a PVM player will push attack stats in order to do more damage per hit. WHy do you guys tend to think that us pvpers will attempt to play at level 350 with 40 points in stam?
Optimization and min-maxing are 2 different things in Castle Age. And no, I'm not going to raise attack or defense until I reach my 2000/1000 goal. At least not until I'm done with questing. It's just not efficient. You lose a lot of leveling speed, and gain little. I might raise defense up to 200 or 400 in between energy and stamina saturation, but only if I had no better use for energy and needed to optimize my energy for FP farming.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-25-2010, 11:14 PM
The necessity to spend all that money (or time) on a free game, when the same results are achievable by using another strategy (power leveling) and not having to spend a single dollar on the game just proves how superior that strategy is. If you have to spend thousands of dollars to be able to beat me, I consider myself a winner. If you have to play for months and months more than me to be able to beat me, either because I quit or because you started playing before me, I consider myself a winner. Time is money. Power leveling, with the current game mechanics, is the most efficient and optimal way to build a character. You get more (SPs) with less (time & money). That's the very definition of optimization. Hence why this is the most optimal way of playing, and the old school mentality is far from optimal.


This proves how bad the "hardcore PvP" build is for 99% of the player base. And even if you were the first person to sign up for Castle Age and had a million dollars to waste on the game, it'd still be a lot more efficient to just go the power leveling route.


It's just way better, easier and quicker to go the power leveling route, especially if your long-term plan is PvP. It's 100x easier to make the switch from e/s to a/d as a power leveler than it is to switch from a/d to e/s as a PvPer. It's all about efficiency and building on a strong base.


Thanks again for proving just how superior power leveling is compared to the old school mentality. If by spending less, I can achieve more, then my strategy is better than yours. There's no way a level 180 is going to beat you, unless they've been playing for at least 150 days more than you. And this would only prove that given more time, one can do more. Well.. duh! But here's the beauty of power leveling: you can do more, with less! The 2000/1000 build is currently the most optimized build in the game.


Why would I think that PvPers are stupid? I'm a PvPer after all. It's just the old school mentality that's stupid. You can't judge one's power based on his level, otherwise the only form of strategy involved is time. There's no way a 120/120 build is going to catch up with another 120/120 build if the latter had a 100 days headstart, unless he's somehow favored by the gods. It's just mathematically impossible. If you want to be better, you need a better strategy. Power leveling is the solution.


Optimization and min-maxing are 2 different things in Castle Age. And no, I'm not going to raise attack or defense until I reach my 2000/1000 goal. At least not until I'm done with questing. It's just not efficient. You lose a lot of leveling speed, and gain little. I might raise defense up to 200 or 400 in between energy and stamina saturation, but only if I had no better use for energy and needed to optimize my energy for FP farming.

Epiqc...you have absolutely no idea what I was trying to say do you?

You also dont seem to realize that people in this game play it for totally different reasons, and there IS no "optimization".

There IS optimization, for your strategy. But YOUR optimization for your strategy, would absolutely DESTROY MY strategy.

And no, I'm not going to raise attack or defense until I reach my 2000/1000 goal. At least not until I'm done with questing. It's just not efficient.

I am not going to put any stat point into energy or stamina until MY leveling speed becomes boring to me, because it is not efficient for me.

I KNOW that when you reach a certain level, you will be able to beat me. But with your method, you will be out of my league by the time you can do so.

It would be, at that point, like pitting a high school baseball team against a college team. But you will still be able to be beaten by the PRO teams, ie pegasus, and the rest. However, at level 50, I decided I wanted to kick ass and take names, so I started defining my build. With every successive level, I have been able to reach further up the chain to do this. For people who play the game as I do, we know that there are folks we will never be able to beat. Even with my extreme build stat allocation, I have never been able to catch Luxor. I knew this from the beginning. That did not bother me. I am playing to be able to beat people in my league. Yes, at this point when I reach the 300 gauntlet, I will be hammered by people 1000 levels above me, unless something changes. It happened when I hit 70 also. But by the time I get there I will not only be able to beat people 150 levelos above me, I will be able to beat people 350 levels above me. THAT is what, to me, is an accomplishment here, and the exact reason I like this game. I personally dont CARE how long it takes me to get there. I also thought about it and decided that I didnt want to take losses the entire way up to that level, just to get to the "top" and be able to reach down and smack peeps around. If that was what this game was about, then I would not have opted to play to begin with. The reason I enjoy it so much, is that it is open ended, and by the time I get to this gauntlet, there will be MANY people I can have fun with.

When I first started this game, there were four or five peeps above the 70 gauntlet. I watched them come to the forum and ask peeps to hurry and level so that they would have some company, and could have more people to play with. That sounded extremely boring to me. I am perfectly happy with my build, and with the way the game is going. I can also understand that you are happy with the way you are building your character, and the way it is happening for you. I am happy for you, and understanding that, I would never try to sell you on my build, and would never try to tell you that my build is superior to yours because I realize that.

Any time someone asks me for advice on how to build, I ask them what they are aiming for. That is the only way I can help them, is to understand where they are coming from. IF they say they want to have a character like mine, I show them how to do it. IF they say they want a different kind of character, I find one of my friends that has a similar character and ask them to give them pointers.

There IS no right way, wrong way, or "optimum" way to play this game, and all you have shown me is that you dont understand that at all.

Why would I think that PvPers are stupid? I'm a PvPer after all.

Are you a pvper? Truly? What level are you, and what level did you start working on adding to the attack/ defense stats?

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-25-2010, 11:19 PM
oh..,.and this:

There's no way a 120/120 build is going to catch up with another 120/120 build if the latter had a 100 days headstart, unless he's somehow favored by the gods. It's just mathematically impossible.


Is just a wrong statement. There are people who have different schedules in their lives to play with. Some people may not work on the same demis at the same rate of time as others. Some may work on aurora to get the MA first, others may not. Some may work on defense while others work on attack. Some may work on hydras first to try to get 100 cronus first, others may work on dragons and other things to get better equipment in slots. That is the beauty of this game, there are thousands of decisions to make at every turn, all of them affecting how a character is built.

CannibalCory
05-25-2010, 11:52 PM
I hate to break my own promises... maybe I just shouldn't make any. :D

First, RAUKO I can see why you responded the way you did so. I repeat obvious things just to make my argument thorough, not to insinuate anyone reading it is an idiot. So no offense taken. :)

Secondly:

[...] I personally dont CARE how long it takes me to get there.
I'd like to use this as evidence for the whole "it depends how you value time" conclusion I reached before.

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 12:03 AM
Well thank you for your response. But all you said was already answered in the guide. In addition it will also take you over 4 years to complete all quest and achievements. Those are SPs just sitting there NOT in your profile.

Yes you will be big and bad for your level. But I wrote a 9 page word doc explaining why that is only of a limited value, it's good, don't get me wrong, but I'm preaching a way that you do sacrifice being the baddest dude on the block, for a while, 6-8 months. But then any one who follow this 300 will crush you in the end, it's a mathematical certainly.

You've only been playing a month, when you reach level 300 and I'm level 4000, we'll see how bad you are.

Happy hunting.

+1 trillion dollars can buy alot of fp :eek:

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 12:10 AM
A note to all.

I find it a bit of ironic timing that I write this (flying in the face of conventional (PVP) logic) at the same time a mile stone was reached. The first player to ever reach level 2000, Pegasus.

So do you think he put his SPs into att/def or eng/stm? Sure he's heavy on the CC (Credit Card), I don't care about that, more power to him. But here is the thing, for months and months people been pumping up their BSI and spending time on the forum telling others to pump up their BSI (slow leveling). Arguing back and forth about who's got the biggest BSI and the such, and he's been quietly pulling away from you all in levels. Did he ever come down to the forum and correct the error. No, never, at least not to my knowledge. He let you all slow level yourselves into extinction. All the while he power leveled. I don't know for sure but I heard his attack is at 5000.

Do you believe me now ????

His attack is OVER 5,000!!
WOW!!! Awesome!!! nuff said...pm your link to CA! You and I need to be friends!! They want to be left in the dust so be it!! In a year they'll be mad that a newby is chaining them without momma's credit card LOL!!! Or better yet...that they could have avoided it by getting there stamina/energy to 1,000...I see the Earthquake about to strike!! But...how many players can I save or you for that matter??!!

Patrick D
05-26-2010, 12:25 AM
Optimization and min-maxing are 2 different things in Castle Age. And no, I'm not going to raise attack or defense until I reach my 2000/1000 goal. At least not until I'm done with questing. It's just not efficient. You lose a lot of leveling speed, and gain little.

I have to disagree, to me reaching the 2000/1000 goal first would be very inefficient and boring because I don't have all the free time in the world to play this game. And the higher level you get the more time it takes to level, so you'll have to find more and more dragons and other monsters to kill and at a certain point it all just takes so much time you really don't want to be levelling more than 2-3 times a day. At least I don't, I have other stuff to do as well. 2000/1000 is also not something you can get in a day, it takes literally more than one hundred thousand clicks in order to get to that point. Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 12:30 AM
I have to disagree, to me reaching the 2000/1000 goal first would be very inefficient and boring because I don't have all the free time in the world to play this game. And the higher level you get the more time it takes to level, so you'll have to find more and more dragons and other monsters to kill and at a certain point it all just takes so much time you really don't want to be levelling more than 2-3 times a day. At least I don't, I have other stuff to do as well. 2000/1000 is also not something you can get in a day, it takes literally more than one hundred thousand clicks in order to get to that point. Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal.

+ like... a lot

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 12:31 AM
"Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal??"

Its players like me, that will end up chaining players like you......just sayin!!

Patrick D
05-26-2010, 12:43 AM
"Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal??"

Its players like me, that will end up chaining players like you......just sayin!!

You say that now while you are still just a little baby. I'd love to hear you say this again when you can actually put your money where your mouth is. ;)

EpiQC
05-26-2010, 12:44 AM
I have to disagree, to me reaching the 2000/1000 goal first would be very inefficient and boring because I don't have all the free time in the world to play this game. And the higher level you get the more time it takes to level, so you'll have to find more and more dragons and other monsters to kill and at a certain point it all just takes so much time you really don't want to be levelling more than 2-3 times a day. At least I don't, I have other stuff to do as well. 2000/1000 is also not something you can get in a day, it takes literally more than one hundred thousand clicks in order to get to that point. Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal.
That's the difference between short-term and long-term planning. Short-term is fun at first, because you get to pwn, but it sucks when you reach the gauntlet. Also, you can't do anything but cry when a non-PvP update comes out, because you're not able to reap the maximum benefits for that update. Long-term is tedious at first, because it takes some time, but then you get to finally enjoy the game to its full potential, and pwn all the old school noobs. :D Patience is a virtue. I have the Orc King anyway, so it doesn't take too long to spend my e/s bars.

As for the 2000/1000 goal, I know it's going to take some time, but not as much as if I decided to increase my attack and defense at the same time. Because as you said, the higher your level, the longer it takes to level up. A good way to get there is to get 120 stamina and put everything else into energy until you complete all quests to 100% level 4 influence. Then farm the 35/20 quest for SPs until you get 200 defense. Then you can begin farming for favor points and go back to increasing energy to 2000 for refills and then stamina to 1000.

And there are so many players who have been playing for months before me, and they're still here. So I think it's realist to have a goal of reaching 2000/1000 e/s because it's going to take a LOT less than 1 year. ie I won't get bored.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 12:57 AM
thats what Im screamin'...what do you call a short term player? I have been here since 1 month after it started. I am not bored yet, I am having a blast, I pwn and pwn, I have been through 3 gauntlets already and I love it...I also dont play by the 300 rule

and if I am going to have a hard time in the gauntlet, how hard of a time do you think YOU are going to have when YOU hit the gauntlet?

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 01:05 AM
You say that now while you are still just a little baby. I'd love to hear you say this again when you can actually put your money where your mouth is. ;)

Partrick, I respect ya buddy I do! Sorry if I came off harsh! But really lets be honest!! How can a player 450 range old school match up to a 1,350 range new school?

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 01:08 AM
that's the difference between short-term and long-term planning. Short-term is fun at first, because you get to pwn, but it sucks when you reach the gauntlet. Also, you can't do anything but cry when a non-pvp update comes out, because you're not able to reap the maximum benefits for that update. Long-term is tedious at first, because it takes some time, but then you get to finally enjoy the game to its full potential, and pwn all the old school noobs. :d patience is a virtue. I have the orc king anyway, so it doesn't take too long to spend my e/s bars.

As for the 2000/1000 goal, i know it's going to take some time, but not as much as if i decided to increase my attack and defense at the same time. Because as you said, the higher your level, the longer it takes to level up. A good way to get there is to get 120 stamina and put everything else into energy until you complete all quests to 100% level 4 influence. Then farm the 35/20 quest for sps until you get 200 defense. Then you can begin farming for favor points and go back to increasing energy to 2000 for refills and then stamina to 1000.

And there are so many players who have been playing for months before me, and they're still here. So i think it's realist to have a goal of reaching 2000/1000 e/s because it's going to take a lot less than 1 year. Ie i won't get bored.

2true!!!!! Nuff said!! Thank u!! :D

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 01:16 AM
+ like... a lot

SD....I hope you never go the 1000 energy stam route...just think of the 4 months or so it would take you to get there!! All the months of not PVPing!! But by Sept...SD would have an attack over 3,000 and a defense over 1,000...easy...so..why would ANY1 fight this??!! Your right! Please don't do this.....nor pass this message to Luxor!! GOD knows what that man would do given 1000 energy/stamina before level 1000!!!!!!

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 01:25 AM
Partrick, I respect ya buddy I do! Sorry if I came off harsh! But really lets be honest!! How can a player 450 range old school match up to a 1,350 range new school?

by 450 I may just...depends on the player. I reach up to the 400s NOW, depending on who it is.

and heh...my def is already well over 1000 :D

and as I have said before, I WILL eventually max those out also, I just wont do it all in one bunch cus it wopuld put me in the gauntlet way before I want to be there. I have a leveling goal that I keep up with too...just that my base priority stats are att/ def, not the other way around

Draconus
05-26-2010, 01:53 AM
As I've stated many times, there are as many different styles of build as there are people building stats. As for finding any form of Optimum Build, it all depends upon what you are building for. Optimum Questor is a pumped Energy. Optimum Monster Hunter is pumped Energy, Stamina, and some decent amount of attack and defense to get better results from the use of that energy and stamina. Optimum Power Leveler is pumped Stamina and or Energy and pooh on the rest of the stats. Optimum PvP'er is pumped Attack and or Defense and Energy and Stamina mostly just relying upon demi blessings for increases.

By far most people don't want to dedicate to any one specific area. The PvP'er who wants to Monster Hunt more then just 'On The Side', or the Monster Hunter that wants to be active in PvP. The Questor who finds themselves well rewarded by defending in monster battles. The list of possible hybrids is effectively endless.

I chose a PvP build, making that choice even before I first clicked the link to actually begin playing CA. At level 147 my stamina and energy combined is less then most others of my level have stamina or energy either one alone. But in PvP Battle I can attack, or defend against, most people 100 levels above my own level. And as has been stated before, the higher my level gets and the more I pour into my attack and defense, the farther I can reach. Because that is what my stats are built for. The only time, or way, that I can compare my stats against those of another player is on the battle page where my stats are made to be. To try to compare my build to another in any other area of CA would be totally wasted effort. Sure, I can do twice as much damage per hit then a monster hunter of my level can against a monster. But that monster hunter can make 3 times, even 4 times as many hits. There is no comparison possible between 2 builds outside of the area(s) those builds are made for. If you build for 1 area, then you will find yourself taking 2nd place in any other area.

Please stop attempting to compare Apples to Oranges to Bananas, because it simply does not work. Optimum is according to what the player wishes to do at the time. And that changes from one player to the next and quite possibly from one day to the next.

Dr Devious
05-26-2010, 02:54 AM
thats what Im screamin'...what do you call a short term player? I have been here since 1 month after it started. I am not bored yet, I am having a blast, I pwn and pwn, I have been through 3 gauntlets already and I love it...I also dont play by the 300 rule

and if I am going to have a hard time in the gauntlet, how hard of a time do you think YOU are going to have when YOU hit the gauntlet?

you being that level is a bit like playing a video game on the easy setting, that's cool but don't be delude, the player you should judge yourself against are those who have been playing the same amount of time as you not players like me who have been playing weeks,

adam ahman
05-26-2010, 03:09 AM
you being that level is a bit like playing a video game on the easy setting, that's cool but don't be delude, the player you should judge yourself against are those who have been playing the same amount of time as you not players like me who have been playing weeks,

I have to agree +1

jithinprakash
05-26-2010, 03:15 AM
Hey nice to see that I actually followed this rule even before reading this post.. :)

CannibalCory
05-26-2010, 06:04 AM
you being that level is a bit like playing a video game on the easy setting, that's cool but don't be delude, the player you should judge yourself against are those who have been playing the same amount of time as you not players like me who have been playing weeks,

I directly addressed this in one of my posts a couple pages back:


The lens PvP looks through at Castle Age is irrespective of time. That is to say, "let's ignore time". That means rather than comparing a longitudinal view (two guys start at the same time, one PvP and the other this "300" way, who is going to win in a year?), they compare in a cross-sectional view. Again, that is to say they compare with other people in their level, who may or may not have taken the same amount of time to get there.

Dr Devious, just because you value time when battling PvP doesn't mean others do as well. You can believe it's like "playing the easy setting", but then that's blatantly bashing someone's personal beliefs, or saying their personal beliefs are wrong. Like when people bash me for being Pagan. If it's so easy, how come more people aren't slow leveling?

To everyone: The point I'm trying to get across is, there are other viewpoints than the 300 one. It's not the absolute godly build (as Draconus and others have said before). Other people approach this game with a different value system and philosophy. And they are all worth respecting, even if personally you don't agree with it.

If people can't even learn that life lesson in Castle Age, I hope I don't bump into 'em in real life.

Patrick D
05-26-2010, 09:59 AM
Partrick, I respect ya buddy I do! Sorry if I came off harsh! But really lets be honest!! How can a player 450 range old school match up to a 1,350 range new school?

Well, if you assume the 1350 new school dude went the 2000/1000 route there actually might be lvl 450 old school people around who can beat him. And I am not saying it is a bad choice to set your goals at 2000/1000 first, it would just be a bad choice for ME because I would get bored or burned out on this game before I would reach this goal. But there are more ways leading to Rome, there is more than just an old and new school way of thinking. Between 120/120 and 2000/1000 lies a whole world of possibilities which do not have to be inferior or superior to one another. And in the end it doesn't matter what you do, Pegasus and the like will always be able to chain you into the ground as long as they keep playing and levelling. That's just the way it is.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 01:02 PM
you being that level is a bit like playing a video game on the easy setting, that's cool but don't be delude, the player you should judge yourself against are those who have been playing the same amount of time as you not players like me who have been playing weeks,

well, the level is off a little, it has went to 226 since i last updated that. And your statement is just not even correct. I do judge mmyself against those who have been playing as long as I have, there just arent so many of them. A few of them are in the low 300s and most of them are still in the 200's and we have tournaments all the time.

But it isnt ANYTHING like playing on the easy setting.

If anything, having a setting that allows one to skip through the levels and pass up all the hardcore players until you get past them and can reach down and hit them with SPs they havent even been able to get to yet is the easy setting...

you peeps are unreal with your logic and comparisons to different types of games, real life, etc

riskmanager
05-26-2010, 04:55 PM
I have to agree with SDHawk on the one point that a PvP build is not considered an "easy" setting. Personally, I have the money to spend and could have easily, and still can, spend the money to become a power leveler. I just choose not to. I am not saying that any of the super high levels necessarily had it easy nor did they have to spend tons of $$$, but I am suggesting that the PvP build not be denounced as an easy build.

For all intents and purposes, time in this game can be bought by money. For example, by leveling really quickly one can overcome the normal slower process of accumulating skillpoints. To further supplement that, one could spend money to speed up that process even more. However, for a truly dedicated PvPer, they would not only choose not to spend money, but would also have to choose not to dedicate loads of stamina to simply collect demi prayers on a daily basis for as long as possible for any given level to maintain their "edge or BSI" for their particular bracket. How this comes across as a necessarily easy build confuses me if only because the time required to build a super powerful PvPer is quite enormous. And thus, patience becomes key here. So the choice is spending money versus spending time. To me, the more difficult of the two happens to be spending time.

Dr Devious
05-26-2010, 07:14 PM
well, the level is off a little, it has went to 226 since i last updated that. And your statement is just not even correct. I do judge mmyself against those who have been playing as long as I have, there just arent so many of them. A few of them are in the low 300s and most of them are still in the 200's and we have tournaments all the time.

But it isnt ANYTHING like playing on the easy setting.

If anything, having a setting that allows one to skip through the levels and pass up all the hardcore players until you get past them and can reach down and hit them with SPs they havent even been able to get to yet is the easy setting...

you peeps are unreal with your logic and comparisons to different types of games, real life, etc

that setting that allows one to skip through levels is called playing if you did it more you would level too, lol

Dr Devious
05-26-2010, 07:26 PM
I have to agree with SDHawk on the one point that a PvP build is not considered an "easy" setting. Personally, I have the money to spend and could have easily, and still can, spend the money to become a power leveler. I just choose not to. I am not saying that any of the super high levels necessarily had it easy nor did they have to spend tons of $$$, but I am suggesting that the PvP build not be denounced as an easy build.

For all intents and purposes, time in this game can be bought by money. For example, by leveling really quickly one can overcome the normal slower process of accumulating skillpoints. To further supplement that, one could spend money to speed up that process even more. However, for a truly dedicated PvPer, they would not only choose not to spend money, but would also have to choose not to dedicate loads of stamina to simply collect demi prayers on a daily basis for as long as possible for any given level to maintain their "edge or BSI" for their particular bracket. How this comes across as a necessarily easy build confuses me if only because the time required to build a super powerful PvPer is quite enormous. And thus, patience becomes key here. So the choice is spending money versus spending time. To me, the more difficult of the two happens to be spending time.

you say they spend time like there looking at the screen waiting, no they log in pray have a few battles and go, powers have to spend time using their high e/s if they level i did sometime 30 levels day that a lot of time and effort,

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 08:56 PM
that setting that allows one to skip through levels is called playing if you did it more you would level too, lol

I never said it wasnt playing, I said I feel it is playing the "easy" way...the way I play is playing also. Right?

And yes, if I did that I would level faster too. I choose not to play on the "easy" setting. :D

Dr Devious
05-26-2010, 09:52 PM
I never said it wasnt playing, I said I feel it is playing the "easy" way...the way I play is playing also. Right?

And yes, if I did that I would level faster too. I choose not to play on the "easy" setting. :D

so it's easier to level 30 times a week then it is twice lol, low level players with all the top demi stuff are hardcore pvp players lol,

EpiQC
05-26-2010, 10:32 PM
You think it's harder to log in once a day to pray than to log in once a day to pray, spend 2000 energy & 1000 stamina X amount of times, hunt 10+ dragons and serpents, calculate your exp required and exp/influence/energy ratios, return favors, etc, etc? LOL :rolleyes:

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-26-2010, 10:52 PM
If you guys will note:

I wasn't the one who brought up "playing on the easy setting"

In fact, the posts I made concerning that all had easy as "easy".

What, exactly, does that tell you?

Dr Devious
05-27-2010, 12:10 AM
If you guys will note:

I wasn't the one who brought up "playing on the easy setting"

In fact, the posts I made concerning that all had easy as "easy".

What, exactly, does that tell you?


what i meant by that is, you know 99.9% of players on your battle page haven't been playing as long as you, and you know 99% of the players who have are many levels above you, to then say hitting down is some how wrong means you want all the strengths of your pvp build but you don't wont players to explicit it's only weakness slow levelling,

Lord Dufduf
05-27-2010, 12:38 AM
I have to agree with SDHawk on the one point that a PvP build is not considered an "easy" setting.



Yes, really. PVP easy??? If anything it's the other way around. Perhaps not easy is the right word. PVP is less forgiving. PVM you got more of a buffer. Plenty of stamin, keep looking for targets.

I find I actually do much more work. Try giving away 70 stamina and "Please Return the Favor" or "Favor return from:" lots more effort. But PVP has hard/tighter character to play.




Someone may have made similiar comments already, but the posts are coming in faster than I can read right now...

Demipowers I'd recommend a rotation among all demipowers to unlock the quests. (Aurora you might skip or pray to less frequently to keep building health two much - every 9 health points will add 1 link more in a chain attack on average (losing costs 7-12 hp). So a few points added to health isn't going to hurt you much. Just don't go hog wild. The reason you want to rotate is that it will:
1 unlock more skill points quicker from demiquests
2 You will complete all demipaths quicker as you will not be wasting the demipoints you pick up from monster fights and your daily 10 from battles/raids
3 Most of the demigear is no longer best in game and the few that aren't are usually not too superior to farmable items......



Yes you are correct. This was intentionally left out of the guide as was the entire concept of 'Farming.'

The 300 rule will take some time. This will allow the beginner a month or so to get familiar with the game. It is hoped that they will see, "wait a minute, if I go against his advise at least for the next 2 days I will unlock a low level demi quest...." It is my hope he or she WILL go against my advice. But this can only be truly figured out in time.

Farming is another. You can substitute "Invulnerability" for "Royal Seal". Invulnerability can be obtain by 2000 hearts by doing "Raids". A beginner might obtain 2000 hearts on the average of every 4 days and 365/4 = 91.25. So in 1 year you can farm only 91 Invulnerability so that you won't need to buy Royal Seal. Not good. If the other hand you have enough stamina and att/def, and also know the [+1 Kill] trick, you can have 6 raids going at a time and farm 1 perhaps 2 Invulnerability per day, if not more.

And the beginner looks up and says, "What's a Raid? What's the +1 trick? What's a Royal seal?"

I made the executive decision to point the path, let them figure out the details.




His attack is OVER 5,000!!
WOW!!! Awesome!!! nuff said...pm your link to CA! You and I need to be friends!! They want to be left in the dust so be it!! In a year they'll be mad that a newby is chaining them without momma's credit card LOL!!! Or better yet...that they could have avoided it by getting there stamina/energy to 1,000...I see the Earthquake about to strike!! But...how many players can I save or you for that matter??!!

"I see the Earthquake about to strike!! "

Here are some direct quotes from some heavy PVP players. They didn't listen. Not only did they not listen, they continually preached the low/slow level gospel over and over. I finally wrote the guide so at least the new players would not suffer the same fate. This is just random people responding to the original status update. I will give no names. It just shows that they can't keep up with the heavy stamina/energy builds unless they pay for FPs. And that doesn't even work. They also assume that ALL PVMers pay. They have yet to understand the propagational affect energy/stamina have over the long run.

The earthquake is here.

" I am leaving all of the slayer threads.
I no longer consider myself a slayer. I will join very few Alpha and Azriel battles in the future.
I will not support the devs ill concealed greed. Shortly CA will split into a two tiered game and I will remain in the lower tier." [Bold added for emphasis]

"....I was thinking the same thing about these new monsters ... They have clearly made monsters that the "average" player can NOT fight..."

"My path is turning... shaking off the ties that hinder and following the ones that matter most. My desire was not to become a level up monster but rather a helpful army member... I'll see you in the lower tier Great Warrior. "



But levels are meaningless, I mean who cares a hardcore PvP build of level 300 is the strongest at his own level, when a level 1200 powerleveller turned PvP kicks his ass any time of the day? Levels have no meaning once you're in the gauntlet, in case you didn't know that yet. And a hardcore PvP build will NEVER reach level 1200, he would need to purchase thousands of refills to get even close to lvl 1000. And even then the lvl 1200 dude could do the same and be lvl 3000+ while the hardcore PvP build is still struggling to get to lvl 1000. So no matter how you look at it, the powerleveller always comes out on top and will stay there forever. The hardcore PvP-er has no realistic chance at all to ever catch up.



"I have to disagree, to me reaching the 2000/1000 goal first would be very inefficient and boring because I don't have all the free time in the world to play this game. And the higher level you get the more time it takes to level, so you'll have to find more and more dragons and other monsters to kill and at a certain point it all just takes so much time you really don't want to be levelling more than 2-3 times a day. At least I don't, I have other stuff to do as well. 2000/1000 is also not something you can get in a day, it takes literally more than one hundred thousand clicks in order to get to that point. Who wants to go through all that just so they can finally PvP? Most people would get bored of the game way before they reach that goal."

If we take a x-y graph titled "Dueling Prowess", the y is how much bite you bring to the battle, the x is time. Let's say the PVP starts at around 100 on the y axis (y intercept) , he's got 75 attack, 50 def (110 actually but just using round numbers). The PVM/power leveler starts at 5. Let the slope of PVP = 0.6. Let slope of power leveler = 1. At some point in time the two lines will meet AND after that point the higher slope will remain above the other for all time.

So as I stated and as Patrick is stating, the PVM/leveler wins in the long run, 100% guarantee.

"I have to disagree, to me reaching the 2000/1000 goal first would be very inefficient and boring because I don't have all the free time in the world to play this game."

Bingo! Some people only have enough time to log on once or twice a week. I know, I know, say it isn't so, but they're out there. And some people, my self included would not like the uncomfortable feeling of having 10 att/def and being at level 1000 (an exaggeration). And some people have no idea what they want, or no idea what they are doing.

"Take the middle road." At least for a season. What if we all wake up tomorrow and find the levels are now 4X further apart. Yes the power leveler still wins, but the time spread is more. So that is months and months more of: "Dang, I can't win hardly any duels!!" At least with a min of 300 att/def, if the parameters change, you still can enjoy 40%, 60% more victories or whatever the percentage. Or modify it to your style: 200 stamina, 500 attack as a start. The journey 'Along the way' is more pleasant, for that individual any way.

I felt most players would like to relax and play the game, not be all strung out on coffee, "More stamina, More stamina, More stamina !!!!"

Stop, smell a few roses, get a good base, play the game for a month, then decide what you like.

The 2000/1000 energy stamina is also one of my goals. But I will take a few 'detours' along the way. Getting a few hundred more into attack and defense is one. Why? I want to. I don't just want to be leader on the board because of my stamina. I want people to see the attack log and marvel as well. Ego? Sure, but that's my 'smelling of the roses' along the journey.

I enjoy the journey as well as the destination. So my slope isn't 1. It's 0.8, I'm happy.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-27-2010, 02:50 AM
what i meant by that is, you know 99.9% of players on your battle page haven't been playing as long as you, and you know 99% of the players who have are many levels above you, to then say hitting down is some how wrong means you want all the strengths of your pvp build but you don't wont players to explicit it's only weakness slow levelling,

wth is this? Pin the tail on the argument? You switch tracks more than anyone I know.

I know I made a statement about hitting down, but please dont make out like I said it is wrong. I know that many players who have been playing longer than me are a few levels above me, I also said that when I enter a tournament it is with those same peeps because they are the ones which tell me how I truly stand in the pvp world. 99 percent of the players in my level hold no thrill for me at all. That is why I also said that I reach UP 100 to 150 levels at will. THAT is MY thrill. You took that statement COMPLETELY out of context. As far as me personally, if one wanted to go the route being discussed, and put 1000 sp into stam and 2000 into energy first, they would need to go TOTALLY out of my range to dent my shield. The thread has went completely off topic I know, but lets try to stay with the current theme at least hey?

labalaba
05-27-2010, 04:47 AM
You've derailed into slow leveling and power leveling,
leveling has nothing to do with what you want to do
in the game. We still do both battles and monster hunting.

ok I did both att/def and eng/stam routes, and
yes, eng/stam route IS the "easy" settings.

For the same 50 days, I can get:
1. level 120 General, 120/60 eng/stam with 1000 combined att/def
2. level 240 Legionnaire, 1000/240 eng/stam with 60 combined att/def

but here's the catch afterwards:

- When the level 240 decides to slow down and finish the quests, I realize I
can only accumulate 10 skill points/level, while the level 120 can accumulate
20 skill points/level even at ~2 days/level but with casual and REASONABLE
play-time. Go with the 2000/1000 eng/stam if you can play the game 20
hours/day or can't decide when it's time for work or play.

- Which one has more chance to make it to Prince before level 300?
Just hitting random people from +/- 20 levels bracket, the level 240 won't stand a chance,
I would need to go to level 500 first before CAREFULLY choosing 300+ people.

EpiQC
05-27-2010, 04:50 AM
I enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

Hum, so do I.. Going for a 2000/1000 build isn't boring, it just takes some time. But not that much if you know how to plan ahead and concentrate on that first. I get to see my stats go up by 20-50+ points per day, I get to hunt more than a handful of dragons per day, I get to farm 5+ FPs per day so I can keep my leveling speed, etc. I can also PvP - and win - with my measly 23 combined a/d if I pick my targets carefully. Sure, I get attacked 1-3 times per day.. but what do I lose? 300k gold, 0 BPs and some health? Meh.

So, I can do anything in the game, and I can do it more than any PvPer out there because I have more resources available (and I'm not talking about $$). 2000/1000 is currently the best build in the game, whether you prefer to attack monsters, fortify castles or defeat other players in PvP. But, of course, if you don't want to take the time to adopt the best strategy in the game, then you can always go the easy way and just log in to pray to Corvintheus every day and level up only from defensive exp. Yay, you can pwn noobs under level 80! :rolleyes:

Dave O
05-27-2010, 05:10 AM
If we take a x-y graph titled "Dueling Prowess", the y is how much bite you bring to the battle, the x is time. Let's say the PVP starts at around 100 on the y axis (y intercept) , he's got 75 attack, 50 def (110 actually but just using round numbers). The PVM/power leveler starts at 5. Let the slope of PVP = 0.6. Let slope of power leveler = 1. At some point in time the two lines will meet AND after that point the higher slope will remain above the other for all time.

So as I stated and as Patrick is stating, the PVM/leveler wins in the long run, 100% guarantee.



And this is where I think you are mistaken. I have no idea of where you came up with those numbers -- perhaps you just pulled them out of the air like so many other "statistics" that have been tossed about in this thread. I would assume by "bite" the "y-axis" reflects ATT+DEF?

While it is true that at a given level, the power leveler will level faster than the "old school" player; it remains a fact that unless they are using a CC, their leveling speed slows down with each level -- they will not be able to sustain a constant leveling speed and at some point they will be leveling at the same pace as the "old school" player who is many levels below them ... guaranteed.

To make things worse, as soon as the power leveler decides to switch over to ATT/DEF to be more competitive in the PvP environment (or because they have maxed their ENG/STA in terms of refill capacity), that "slope" will drop significantly.

PvP is all about two things ... ATT and DEF. Level makes no difference (other than determining who appears on your battle list). A power leveler with 2000 ENG and 1000 STA and 300 each in ATT and DEF (using the "300 Rule") will be around L550 or so (perhaps a bit higher as they will actually gather fewer skill points per level than the slow leveler on account of fewer demi-blessings per level because they are spending less time at each level).

A balanced "old school" PvP player will have 120 ENG and perhaps 60 STA (many would consider that a lot) and the same 300 points in ATT and DEF at around L100 (perhaps a bit earlier, but close enough).

So, our L550 power leveler is on par with a L100 "old school" player (IN TERMS of PvP!) when they have maxed their ENG and STA and start to pump ATT/DEF

1) Can the power leveler achieve these stats by L550 in less time than our "old school" player got to L100? Remember, our slow leveler was pumping ENG and STA to 120 and 60 respectively from the start; so those first levels are comparable in pace to the "power leveler" and the break out occurs after the first 240 skill points (or ~L25-30). Can the power leveler gain the next 520 levels in the same amount of time as our "old school" player gains 70? That is over 7X faster, which is a lot. It is important to remember the "break point" occurred because our "old school" player achieved his goals for ENG and STA and has switched to pumping ATT/DEF -- not because the power leveler has increased their leveling rate.

2) Assuming they can achieve the above ... for the power leveler to "pull ahead" of the "old school" player in PvP, they will have to continue to level faster, assigning ALL available skill points to the PvP stats (ENG and STA are topped off, so no real reason not to) -- as the "old school" player is doing the same.

Interestingly enough, the additional leveling speed granted by the maximized ENG and STA is very nearly balanced by the additional XP required to level at the higher level. In other words, from a rough swag based on numbers from other threads (which seem reasonable from personal experience); assuming our L100 "old school" player and our L550 power leveler both level at the same time and both expend all their ENG and STA in a similar fashion, they will both have very nearly the same amount of XP remaining to achieve the next level -- and since the regeneration rate is the same, they will both gain the next level at around the same time (ignoring the use of CC and FP).

"Ah ... but the power leveler will have access to many more FP and will be able to capitalize on the refills using those FP to get the upper hand!" you say. And here you may very well be correct -- would need much more accurate numbers than I have access to if one were to really put the math to it.

I just do not think a power leveler will be as "dominating" in the PvP world as many of you are claiming. It does have the inherent advantage at being very well suited in other aspects of the game -- no PvP player will argue with anyone over that -- but some like myself, find 5 min of quests and monsters per day is enough -- I'd rather test my character against other players, which I believe is the more challenging.

And lastly, CA is full of players who do not care about PvP -- I'd venture to say that MOST players fall into that category. So any player with a bit of ATT/DEF can do quite well vs. the masses -- particularly against those with Battle Ranks of Baron or less. But when you are targeting those ranked Prince and higher, you will find that many of them are not as soft as those lower ranked ones you were battling earlier. And when those same players attack you, you will discover that what was a "good" defense at Baron may not be so good at Prince.

Lord Dufduf
05-27-2010, 07:46 AM
And this is where I think you are mistaken. I have no idea of where you came up with those numbers -- perhaps you just pulled them out of the air like so many other "statistics" that have been tossed about in this thread. I would assume by "bite" the "y-axis" reflects ATT+DEF?

Yes it does and the numbers are arbitrary. Given a start and some end number in the far off future. A number we don't know. Take out a ruler connect the two. Do the same for the other player. There is no way I can say in 2.3 years he will be at L3340 when he attacks. Too many variables. 2.3 years, 2 years, 1.5 years, L2240, L1550, we would have to do the experiment, start 2 characters at the same time, wait 2 years or what ever for the results, and then get the slope of the graph. Obviously me nor anyone did such an experiment. So of course they are arbitrary numbers.

Someone could write a program, hint, hint.

It's just my way of saying the one who can get more SPs will have the ability to increase his slope, if he chooses to, so will win in the long run.



....
I just do not think a power leveler will be as "dominating" in the PvP world as many of you are claiming. It does have the inherent advantage at being very well suited in other aspects of the game -- no PvP player will argue with anyone over that -- but some like myself, find 5 min of quests and monsters per day is enough -- I'd rather test my character against other players, which I believe is the more challenging.

And lastly, CA is full of players who do not care about PvP -- I'd venture to say that MOST players fall into that category. So any player with a bit of ATT/DEF can do quite well vs. the masses -- particularly against those with Battle Ranks of Baron or less. But when you are targeting those ranked Prince and higher, you will find that many of them are not as soft as those lower ranked ones you were battling earlier. And when those same players attack you, you will discover that what was a "good" defense at Baron may not be so good at Prince.

Very well said. I agree. We are in for an awakening to just how far up in levels we will need to be, it will NOT be a cake walk.

Quote: EpiQC


I can also PvP - and win - with my measly 23 combined a/d if I pick my targets carefully. Sure, I get attacked 1-3 times per day.. but what do I lose? 300k gold, 0 BPs and some health?

"can do quite well vs. the masses"
So Dave there's the proof. If 23 can do, then L550 can also. And I did.
Battles Won 23726
Battles Lost 4242

I have finish all but 5000 duels. I invade not duel. But got 2500 defensive duel victories anyway. So I'm going for 5000 as we speak. I've only been at it a day and a half, here's my progress.

Invasions Won 14,530 Duels Won 3,314
Invasions Lost 1,387 Duels lost 1,812

"you will discover that what was a "good" defense at Baron may not be so good at Prince."
I'm finding that out now. That's part of the reason I want to beef up a little before I make the 2000/1000 run.



Hum, so do I.. Going for a 2000/1000 build isn't boring

Not my intent what so ever at all. Not implying it's boring. Just stating for me personally I want to take a detour and beef up a little first. Then I'll join you up yonder.

Dr Devious
05-27-2010, 10:11 AM
here's some real numbers 330 levels in 7 weeks, got to 300 without buying fp, i wanted to see how quick it could be done, i was playing 10hours a day, i spent more e/s in that time then most pvp players do in a year, anyway i buy fp now and farming, i'm averaging 6 fp a level so 300 fp will let me power around a 100 levels i say that because as i level I'll farm more then 6 pre level as my stats go up, sooner or later i will need more then one refill per level haven't worked it out yet but think it will be post 1000 level mark, my levelling speed is down to how much time i'm willing to spend finding the monsters i need, i'm not going for 2000/1000 first and i will not stop adding e/s when i get there, by 1000 lsi 4 bsi 2.5 hoping to do it in 6 mouths, hardcore pvp build will do about 150 levels in that time if that. i think the 300 rule makes sense the devs could change the game tomorrow and i could be stranded, that's what happen to pvp builds just admit it the game has change.

Dave O
05-27-2010, 11:32 AM
here's some real numbers 330 levels in 7 weeks, got to 300 without buying fp, i wanted to see how quick it could be done, i was playing 10hours a day, i spent more e/s in that time then most pvp players do in a year, ...

10 hours per day!?! :eek:
I'm thinking you have spent more TIME than most PvP players do in a year ...


...
anyway i buy fp now and farming, i'm averaging 6 fp a level so 300 fp will let me power around a 100 levels i say that because as i level I'll farm more then 6 pre level as my stats go up, sooner or later i will need more then one refill per level haven't worked it out yet but think it will be post 1000 level mark, my levelling speed is down to how much time i'm willing to spend finding the monsters i need,

Well, once the CC comes out "all bets are off"; because at that point your leveling speed is simply a factor of how much time you play and how much coin you pay. I am not saying that is a bad thing ... in fact I am happy for you as it is generous folks such as yourself who keep the devs working and that means more for everyone who plays -- it is all good! For what it is worth, a CC player is VERY WELL SERVED by following any "Power Leveling" strategy -- more bang for your buck ... literally. :cool:


i'm not going for 2000/1000 first and i will not stop adding e/s when i get there, by 1000 lsi 4 bsi 2.5 hoping to do it in 6 mouths, hardcore pvp build will do about 150 levels in that time if that. i think the 300 rule makes sense the devs could change the game tomorrow and i could be stranded, that's what happen to pvp builds just admit it the game has change.

I doubt you will ever be "stranded" following your present path ... I don't understand the last phrase as I'm not sure PvP players have been "stranded" either. While not a "die hard" PvP player, I admittedly have a strong PvP build -- and I don't feel left out at all.

Edit: Dr. Devious -- I do hope you continue posting your progress as you move toward your goal. I am very interested in seeing how well you do (and how fast you do it) -- and wish you the best of luck!

EpiQC
05-27-2010, 12:00 PM
1) Can the power leveler achieve these stats by L550 in less time than our "old school" player got to L100? Remember, our slow leveler was pumping ENG and STA to 120 and 60 respectively from the start; so those first levels are comparable in pace to the "power leveler" and the break out occurs after the first 240 skill points (or ~L25-30). Can the power leveler gain the next 520 levels in the same amount of time as our "old school" player gains 70? That is over 7X faster, which is a lot. It is important to remember the "break point" occurred because our "old school" player achieved his goals for ENG and STA and has switched to pumping ATT/DEF -- not because the power leveler has increased their leveling rate.
300/300, maybe not, because skill points are so easy to get at low level. But 3000/3000? Sure thing. 7x faster isn't a lot. I see PvPers level once every three days. I level 2-4 times per day, before refills. That's about 9 times faster.


2) Assuming they can achieve the above ... for the power leveler to "pull ahead" of the "old school" player in PvP, they will have to continue to level faster, assigning ALL available skill points to the PvP stats (ENG and STA are topped off, so no real reason not to) -- as the "old school" player is doing the same.

Interestingly enough, the additional leveling speed granted by the maximized ENG and STA is very nearly balanced by the additional XP required to level at the higher level. In other words, from a rough swag based on numbers from other threads (which seem reasonable from personal experience); assuming our L100 "old school" player and our L550 power leveler both level at the same time and both expend all their ENG and STA in a similar fashion, they will both have very nearly the same amount of XP remaining to achieve the next level -- and since the regeneration rate is the same, they will both gain the next level at around the same time (ignoring the use of CC and FP).
Do you think 2000/1000 are just arbitrary numbers? No they're not. They're the current (speculated) limits for refills. The purpose of going for such a build is to be able to maximize refills. I agree that once you start to pay for the game, you can't compare the 2 strategies anymore. But FP farming is part of the strategy, so you can't ignore that aspect. If monsters awarded no FP drops, then yes the 120/120 build would be optimal. Sadly for you, it's not the case. A power leveler will never level at the same rate as an old school PvPer, even after the switch. They will always level faster. That's the point of the build.

Patrick D
05-27-2010, 12:15 PM
While it is true that at a given level, the power leveler will level faster than the "old school" player; it remains a fact that unless they are using a CC, their leveling speed slows down with each level -- they will not be able to sustain a constant leveling speed and at some point they will be leveling at the same pace as the "old school" player who is many levels below them ... guaranteed.

And here we arrive at the crucial point, most people think the same as you do but they couldn't be more wrong! You seem to forget that powerlevellers can farm lots of FP from monsters without spending a dime. With 1000 stamina I can farm 6 FP currently, so that's 12 FP gained after I spend 10 FP on a stamina refill. That's a net profit of 2 FP for me, and so I can perfectly sustain my levelling speed without the need to use a CC. You understand now? :)

Patrick D
05-27-2010, 12:27 PM
2000/1000 is currently the best build in the game, whether you prefer to attack monsters, fortify castles or defeat other players in PvP.

Wrong, 2000/1000 is not the best build. My build is different and I am pretty sure I can do everything a 2000/1000 build can do, and it will also take me less time to get to the point where I can effectively PvP and become a High King. And no, I don't use a CC for refills.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-27-2010, 12:37 PM
here's some real numbers 330 levels in 7 weeks, got to 300 without buying fp, i wanted to see how quick it could be done, i was playing 10hours a day, i spent more e/s in that time then most pvp players do in a year, anyway i buy fp now and farming, i'm averaging 6 fp a level so 300 fp will let me power around a 100 levels i say that because as i level I'll farm more then 6 pre level as my stats go up, sooner or later i will need more then one refill per level haven't worked it out yet but think it will be post 1000 level mark, my levelling speed is down to how much time i'm willing to spend finding the monsters i need, i'm not going for 2000/1000 first and i will not stop adding e/s when i get there, by 1000 lsi 4 bsi 2.5 hoping to do it in 6 mouths, hardcore pvp build will do about 150 levels in that time if that. i think the 300 rule makes sense the devs could change the game tomorrow and i could be stranded, that's what happen to pvp builds just admit it the game has change.

so you are lvl 330 right now? If I were to find and bookmark you, how many levels do you think you will have to power through to get me off you?

@Epicq. pwn level 80 noobs? Sorry pally. I pwn peeps IN the gauntlet.

Dr Devious
05-27-2010, 01:48 PM
so you are lvl 330 right now? If I were to find and bookmark you, how many levels do you think you will have to power through to get me off you?

@Epicq. pwn level 80 noobs? Sorry pally. I pwn peeps IN the gauntlet.

it easy to find me just check my monster post, but i don't mind i might even chain you all the way to the gauntlet, about 900

Dave O
05-27-2010, 02:03 PM
And here we arrive at the crucial point, most people think the same as you do but they couldn't be more wrong! You seem to forget that powerlevellers can farm lots of FP from monsters without spending a dime. With 1000 stamina I can farm 6 FP currently, so that's 12 FP gained after I spend 10 FP on a stamina refill. That's a net profit of 2 FP for me, and so I can perfectly sustain my levelling speed without the need to use a CC. You understand now? :)

heh -- must be the new math ...

And no, I don't understand, so please enlighten me ...

What level are you?

How many times do you level each day?

How long have you been playing this character?

What is your BSI (unless you want to reveal the actual ATT & DEF scores) -- after all, we are discussing the merits of the power leveler in terms of PvP?

I accept your value of 6 FP per 1000 STA -- have seen this number tossed about often enough to believe it.

However, the facts remain:

1) The STA refill is capped at 1000 -- having more STA does not change that fact and will only become available after a level up.

2) Each level requires more XP (~25) than the one before it. So, while your STA refill remains capped, and you are unable to gather enough FP to refill it in one go (because you can only get 6 FP per 1000 STA); your leveling rate WILL decrease -- you will not be able to sustain it. And at some point, your leveling rate will match that of the lower level "old school" player.

I suspect that you currently are in a position where you are able to level after 1 refill. But, as your level continues to rise, you will eventually come to the point where you are unable to do that (I'm guessing using the model of 2000 ENG + 1000 STA, it will occur around L650); and you will either have to buy FP or wait to regenerate (just like everyone else) and that is the point I am talking about.

Mytch
05-27-2010, 02:05 PM
it easy to find me just check my monster post, but i don't mind i might even chain you all the way to the gauntlet, about 900

Try again. Given your own estimates you'll still be losing at that point.

Edit: Actually, I may have misunderstood. Did you mean at level 900, or 900 levels after your current level?

Patrick D
05-27-2010, 02:35 PM
heh -- must be the new math ...

And no, I don't understand, so please enlighten me ...

What level are you?

How many times do you level each day?

How long have you been playing this character?

What is your BSI (unless you want to reveal the actual ATT & DEF scores) -- after all, we are discussing the merits of the power leveler in terms of PvP?

I am currently level 294 and level 3 times a day on average, I could level faster but this is the speed I'd like to hang on to because I don't want to spend too much of my free time on this game. For other powerlevellers this may be too slow but this is what I prefer and how much time I want to spend on this game. I am confident I can remain at this levelling speed until level 2000+ and beyond, which I will clarify further below.


However, the facts remain:

1) The STA refill is capped at 1000 -- having more STA does not change that fact and will only become available after a level up.

2) Each level requires more XP (~25) than the one before it. So, while your STA refill remains capped, and you are unable to gather enough FP to refill it in one go (because you can only get 6 FP per 1000 STA); your leveling rate WILL decrease -- you will not be able to sustain it. And at some point, your leveling rate will match that of the lower level "old school" player.

You forget that energy can also be converted to FP. That makes it self-sustainable. And besides, 6 FP per 1000 STA is my current rate, which can be increased later on. How exactly is something people should found out for themselves but it's not that difficult.

oO☼ﬞ Tricᶄsy-TriӾie ☼ﬞOo
05-27-2010, 02:44 PM
it easy to find me just check my monster post, but i don't mind i might even chain you all the way to the gauntlet, about 900
BTW, I dont bookmark and chain continuously, that was a hypothetical...
well, if you are at 900, you may be too strong for me, but I may try to find you and check it out...Im excitable like that :D

edit: Oh, I misunderstood you, I guess you mean that it will take you til lvl 900 to be able to beat me. If you dont mind, Id like to keep in touch for a while, tapping once in a while, just to see how long it takes :)

Dave O
05-27-2010, 03:41 PM
I am currently level 294 and level 3 times a day on average, I could level faster but this is the speed I'd like to hang on to because I don't want to spend too much of my free time on this game. For other powerlevellers this may be too slow but this is what I prefer and how much time I want to spend on this game. I am confident I can remain at this levelling speed until level 2000+ and beyond, which I will clarify further below.

...

You forget that energy can also be converted to FP. That makes it self-sustainable. And besides, 6 FP per 1000 STA is my current rate, which can be increased later on. How exactly is something people should found out for themselves but it's not that difficult.

ah ... ok you can't reveal your secret formula eh? Fair enough -- but I am afraid it does little to alter my conviction that you will not be able to continue leveling 3X per day forever without using "purchased FP" ... just don't see it. :confused:

Best of luck to you ... and be sure to have fun along the way! :)

CannibalCory
05-27-2010, 04:22 PM
If we take a x-y graph titled "Dueling Prowess", the y is how much bite you bring to the battle, the x is time. Let's say the PVP starts at around 100 on the y axis (y intercept) , he's got 75 attack, 50 def (110 actually but just using round numbers). The PVM/power leveler starts at 5. Let the slope of PVP = 0.6. Let slope of power leveler = 1. At some point in time the two lines will meet AND after that point the higher slope will remain above the other for all time.

I bet you didn't even read my post. Think of this:

If we take a x-y graph titled "Dueling Prowess", the y is how much bite you bring to the battle, the x is level. Let's say the PVP starts at around 100 on the y axis (y intercept) , he's got 75 attack, 50 def (110 actually but just using round numbers). The PVM/power leveler starts at 5. Let the slope of PVP = 6 (6 SPs put into att/def per level gained). Let slope of power leveler = 0 (0 SPs put into att/def per level gained). At no point in time the two lines will meet AND after that point (the point the en/stam build starts putting points into att/def) there is no hope of the en/stam build ever catching up with the PVP build on a per-level basis.

This graph is very useful for the en/stam build, as they just draw a flat line from the height of the graph for their level, go to the left 'til they hit the PvP line, then go down and read the level number and that's (hypothetically, of course) the highest level PvP person they can beat. The fact is, as a powerleveler, you will always have that gap.

Dr Devious
05-27-2010, 06:11 PM
Try again. Given your own estimates you'll still be losing at that point.

Edit: Actually, I may have misunderstood. Did you mean at level 900, or 900 levels after your current level?

chain her to the gauntlet meaning i would give her xp for the win, i don't know her level somewhere around 250 i think, I'd say her bsi is at lest 8 she is going to level as well and if she is attack heavy i would have to be about 1200,:eek:

Patrick D
05-27-2010, 08:35 PM
ah ... ok you can't reveal your secret formula eh? Fair enough -- but I am afraid it does little to alter my conviction that you will not be able to continue leveling 3X per day forever without using "purchased FP" ... just don't see it. :confused:

You do see it, you just don't believe me when I say that it is possible to gain ~10 FP per stamina refill. But that's okay, I will get back to you in a few months and we will talk again. :)


Best of luck to you ... and be sure to have fun along the way! :)

Oh don't worry I am always having fun, love this game and how it keeps developing. :D

Dr Devious
05-27-2010, 09:08 PM
[QUOTE=Patrick D;1111650]You do see it, you just don't believe me when I say that it is possible to gain ~10 FP per stamina refill. But that's okay, I will get back to you in a few months and we will talk again. :)


well Patrick i know it's possible hit enough monsters with one refill to get 10 fp but you don't get the fp till the monsters are dead. i have 26 serpents on the go right now but half wont die till tomorrow, i buy fp and just collect them back later how do you did it?

EpiQC
05-27-2010, 09:10 PM
1) The STA refill is capped at 1000 -- having more STA does not change that fact and will only become available after a level up.
That's why you stop at 1000.. less if you have Azeron.


2) Each level requires more XP (~25) than the one before it. So, while your STA refill remains capped, and you are unable to gather enough FP to refill it in one go (because you can only get 6 FP per 1000 STA); your leveling rate WILL decrease -- you will not be able to sustain it. And at some point, your leveling rate will match that of the lower level "old school" player.
Actually, it's only ~12.5 more per level. And while the refills are capped, as your a/d increase, you require less e/s per monster for the same amount of damage - against dmg-based monsters -, thus you can farm even more monsters. And when you can gather 10 FPs per refill, it doesn't matter if you need 1 or 10 refills to level up; you can gather 10 FPs per refill! So no, your leveling speed isn't going to decrease with time the way you'd think.

unitsinc
05-27-2010, 09:29 PM
For the same 50 days, I can get:
1. level 120 General, 120/60 eng/stam with 1000 combined att/def
2. level 240 Legionnaire, 1000/240 eng/stam with 60 combined att/def



You are incredibly misinformed on how PVP works my friend.

When I started arena, I had a combined 30 att/def and made legend easily.

This got me thinking about normal PVP and how I would do, so, I started pushing all my stam into PVP and in about a week, maybe two, I was a Baron(from squire.)

I don't hide. I don't need to. With a huge stamina pool and leveling every day, PVP is a total joke. Anything I lose in the 10 attack it takes to push me below 10 health, I regain easily from my huge amount of stamina.

I made Baron around level 200 with a total att/def of about 100.

Can I be beat by a level 80? Most likely. But am I a Baron just the same? You betcha.
Also, I'm pretty sure I can push on to Prince in a matter of two weeks, which I plan on doing before too long and I will let you guys know how I do.

Since I made Baron, I have pumped my att/def a good amount just so I could be a better monster hunter. But now I am wanting some more stamina. I just don't feel good about how little I have compared to my energy. And since my theory about PVP is that att/def doesn't matter, more stam will be a better route.

Level 229
789 Max Energy -- Do more quests
211 Max Stamina -- Launch attacks! (cost 2)
255 Attack -- Offensive might
512 Defense -- Defense power


One thing I have to ask about is not the amount of SP/level a hardcore PVPer has, but how many total they have? Since they level slower they get more demi blessings per level, but I am positive that I get many more points at my level than a PVPer does.

Patrick D
05-27-2010, 09:31 PM
well Patrick i know it's possible hit enough monsters with one refill to get 10 fp but you don't get the fp till the monsters are dead. i have 26 serpents on the go right now but half wont die till tomorrow, i buy fp and just collect them back later how do you did it?

Just make sure you always have enough monsters to loot when you come back online. I always have 30-50 monsters active and when I come back after work or sleep there's like 10-20 of them ready to loot and then you hope it's enough for another refill. :) Sometimes you are unlucky but the more monsters you have active at the same time the more you can loot after a while and that's more chances for FP. :cool:

I am not at 10 FP per refill yet though, but until lvl 600 I don't have to worry because I only need 1 refill to gain another level so 6 FP per refill is enough.

Droidlover
05-28-2010, 12:50 AM
You are incredibly misinformed on how PVP works my friend.

When I started arena, I had a combined 30 att/def and made legend easily.

This got me thinking about normal PVP and how I would do, so, I started pushing all my stam into PVP and in about a week, maybe two, I was a Baron(from squire.)

I don't hide. I don't need to. With a huge stamina pool and leveling every day, PVP is a total joke. Anything I lose in the 10 attack it takes to push me below 10 health, I regain easily from my huge amount of stamina.

I made Baron around level 200 with a total att/def of about 100.

Can I be beat by a level 80? Most likely. But am I a Baron just the same? You betcha.
Also, I'm pretty sure I can push on to Prince in a matter of two weeks, which I plan on doing before too long and I will let you guys know how I do.

Since I made Baron, I have pumped my att/def a good amount just so I could be a better monster hunter. But now I am wanting some more stamina. I just don't feel good about how little I have compared to my energy. And since my theory about PVP is that att/def doesn't matter, more stam will be a better route.

Level 229
789 Max Energy -- Do more quests
211 Max Stamina -- Launch attacks! (cost 2)
255 Attack -- Offensive might
512 Defense -- Defense power


One thing I have to ask about is not the amount of SP/level a hardcore PVPer has, but how many total they have? Since they level slower they get more demi blessings per level, but I am positive that I get many more points at my level than a PVPer does.

You, my friend, are what they call a glass cannon. You are getting your BP's from casual players, not hardcore pvprs. What level opponents are you hitting? 'Cause I would have crushed you when I was level 65!

unitsinc
05-28-2010, 12:52 AM
You, my friend, are what they call a glass cannon. You are getting your BP's from casual players, not hardcore pvprs. What level opponents are you hitting? 'Cause I would have crushed you when I was level 65!

I hit people on my battle list. But I definitely use my 521 army, but when there are juicy targets with less than max army, it is just waaaay too easy.

And while I may be hitting casual PVPers, I would say that that is the overwhelming majority of people.

I guess I'm not saying I can beat a hardcore PVPer, what I am saying is that I can hit any rank a pure PVPer can with minimal effort.

Dave O
05-28-2010, 01:25 AM
Actually, it's only ~12.5 more per level.

Again, something being reported in this thread does not correlate to what I "see" when I play the game ...

I "see" the following pattern:

Level : XP : Delta : Difference
172 : 184900 : 4325 : ---
174 : 189225 : 4375 : 50
176 : 193600 : 4425 : 50
178 : 198025 : 4475 : 50
180 : 202500 : ---

Where:
Level = current level;
XP = Total XP required for the current level;
Delta = Additional XP required to gain TWO levels*;
Difference = Difference between the current Delta and the one before it.

*I use TWO levels because it has a constant difference of 50. So, from this I make the claim that each level requires approximately 50/2 or 25 more XP than the one before it. (The actual difference in the game depends on whether it is an even or an odd level; however, between two even levels or two odd levels it is a constant 50.)

It is interesting that your value of ~12.5 is exactly 1/2 of my value of ~25 ...

Edit -- ah ... the light finally came on for me -- was double counting the difference (as I was using two levels). The actual values are:
14 more XP for an even level advancing to an odd level; and
11 more XP for an odd level advancing to an even level.

And EpiQC is correct, this is ~12.5 XP per level.





And while the refills are capped, as your a/d increase, you require less e/s per monster for the same amount of damage - against dmg-based monsters -, thus you can farm even more monsters.

hmm ... I've always read dragons offer the best FP per STA in the game -- and they are STA based so additional ATT will not net you more FP against them.

What DMG based monsters are you farming for FP?
How many FP are you getting per 1000 STA from them?

What ENG based monsters are you farming for FP?
How may FP are you getting per 1000 ENG from them?



And when you can gather 10 FPs per refill, it doesn't matter if you need 1 or 10 refills to level up; you can gather 10 FPs per refill! So no, your leveling speed isn't going to decrease with time the way you'd think.

True enough. I've always considered the "perpetual leveler" (one who can level at will, without waiting for stats to regenerate or using a CC) to be the Holy Grail of CA. If one could get 10 FP from each and every refill -- then they could pump ATT/DEF until the cows came home; leveling as many times as they wanted -- there would be no limit to their PvP prowess (other than their time to play the game). They would dominate the PvP world in CA and I would tremble before their might.

I'm not saying it can't be done -- but I am not aware of anyone actually doing it. Are you saying that you have? (Remember, using the CC doesn't count -- even if it is only "occasionally" -- anyone can dominate by using a CC provided they have the resources.)

Dave O
05-28-2010, 01:57 AM
I hit people on my battle list. But I definitely use my 521 army, but when there are juicy targets with less than max army, it is just waaaay too easy.

And while I may be hitting casual PVPers, I would say that that is the overwhelming majority of people.

And I'll agree with your statements 100%.


I guess I'm not saying I can beat a hardcore PVPer, what I am saying is that I can hit any rank a pure PVPer can with minimal effort.

I'm thinking that once you get beyond Prince, you may find the easy pickings a bit slim. True, you can continue to feed from the numerous Barons out there who are casual players but the BP from them will be fairly low and you will expend a lot of time and Stamina attaining/maintaining rank.

For a PvP player, the goal (I believe) is to attain and maintain the highest possible Battle Rank -- currently High King. At the lower levels this is much more daunting because of the "bookmarking" feature -- once you get in the upper ranks -- anyone can collect your keep link and pass it along to their "friends" -- so a lower level, high ranking person will find themselves targeted by others much, much higher than themselves -- no need to wait for the gauntlet.

The obvious solution is to hide -- best defense in the game; a bit more work/planning but VERY effective. This method dove-tails nicely with the Glass Cannon (all ATT, no DEF) as all their PvP points can be placed into ATT and they can pretty much hit anyone in their level range and many players much higher level than they are -- one of the reasons that build is so popular.

Another (although admittedly less effective) method is the Wall -- attempting to get enough points into DEF to block your attackers -- this is quite effective against opponents of similar level but breaks down against those who are many, many levels higher than you. Gaining Battle Ranks using this method is inherently more risky.

Can you do it? Sure -- but I'm not certain that I would classify it as "easy" -- certainly a LOT of clicking.

Droidlover
05-28-2010, 02:07 AM
Another (although admittedly less effective) method is the Wall -- attempting to get enough points into DEF to block your attackers -- this is quite effective against opponents of similar level but breaks down against those who are many, many levels higher than you. Gaining Battle Ranks using this method is inherently more risky.

Can you do it? Sure -- but I'm not certain that I would classify it as "easy" -- certainly a LOT of clicking.

Actually, it defends against those many levels higher also...and sooo satisfying!:D

Dave O
05-28-2010, 02:53 AM
Actually, it defends against those many levels higher also...and sooo satisfying!:D

Well, yes -- my build is certainly classed a Wall and I have been very successful and pleased with it. Just put on my Prince hat and am waiting to see how long it takes for my keep link to get passed along to the various "clans". When I achieved Baron had a whole slew of folks 2X my level coming for a peek -- fended them off and a few weeks later it stopped -- expect something similar again (and hope I am as successful as I was earlier).

But, I know that there are high level players who are able to break through my defenses. And a Prince is a much more lucrative target than a Baron (who is likely ignored by any Prince or higher). And unlike the hider who CAN NOT be attacked (while hiding), I am susceptible to their attack 24 hours a day (unless one chains me into the ground) -- it is just a fact of life.

EpiQC
05-28-2010, 04:34 AM
Again, something being reported in this thread does not correlate to what I "see" when I play the game ...
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=5291&highlight=experience


What DMG based monsters are you farming for FP?
How many FP are you getting per 1000 STA from them?

What ENG based monsters are you farming for FP?
How may FP are you getting per 1000 ENG from them?
Sea serpents.. and it's 2000 energy. Also, I personally don't intend to raise my attack, so stamina will go towards dragons.


I'm not saying it can't be done -- but I am not aware of anyone actually doing it. Are you saying that you have? (Remember, using the CC doesn't count -- even if it is only "occasionally" -- anyone can dominate by using a CC provided they have the resources.)
I'm still in the process of building my character's foundations, so no. But I'll never pay for a free game.

Dave O
05-28-2010, 06:35 AM
http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=5291&highlight=experience

Didn't read the whole post ... but the values listed by the OP match my values exactly ... a difference of 50 XP for every TWO levels. How do you get ~12.5 XP per level from that?

Edit: Never mind, got it sorted out -- see post #145 above.


Sea serpents.. and it's 2000 energy. Also, I personally don't intend to raise my attack, so stamina will go towards dragons.

ok ... so how many FP per 2000 ENG? (I can divide by 2).

There is a new thread discussing this -- but it doesn't really provide much in the way of data and numbers other than you can get up to 2 FP per slot (random drop).

If you stick with dragons you won't get enough FP for a refill ... you can make up the difference with ENG and Serpents? Can you tell me how many FP you are getting from your 2000 ENG fortifying Serpents? (In case you missed it earlier.)

Patrick D
05-28-2010, 10:09 AM
Didn't read the whole post ... but the values listed by the OP match my values exactly ... a difference of 50 XP for every TWO levels. How do you get ~12.5 XP per level from that?

Your math is bogged, in your calculations I see a difference of 50 xp for every FOUR levels, so that is 50/4 = 12,5 XP per level. :)


Somehow, I am getting the feeling that your statements are based more on what you "think" rather than actual experience ...

It's based on logical reasoning skills, considering serpents are damage based it means that there must be a threshold for defense or attack where it is possible to farm 10 FP per refill. It's the biggest kept secret in the world of CA. ;)

Ulet
05-28-2010, 10:36 AM
A great guide for balanced players, while still a useful guide to another kind of build. The fundamentals of CA are greatly exploited to the players' pleasure! What a good way to enjoy the game.

Dave O
05-28-2010, 10:58 AM
Your math is bogged, in your calculations I see a difference of 50 xp for every FOUR levels, so that is 50/4 = 12,5 XP per level. :)

Yep, you are absolutely correct. I am embarressed to admit how long it took me to sort that out (double counting because I was using two levels). :o


It's based on logical reasoning skills, considering serpents are damage based it means that there must be a threshold for defense or attack where it is possible to farm 10 FP per refill. It's the biggest kept secret in the world of CA. ;)

ah ... ok ... beginning to get the picture now.

The obvious questions are:

1. How much Fortifying do you need to do to have a reasonable expectation of getting 1 FP from a Serpent?

2. What is the ENG cap -- I've seen 2000 and also that there isn't one -- anybody know?

3. How much DMG do you have to do to a Serpent to have a reasonable expectation of getting 1 FP?

Although it may appear that I am attempting to shoot holes into your theory, I am actually quite interested in it -- and obviously still have a lot to learn.

While my fb account is most definitely a Wall (although I only PvP 50X per day for the demi-points so I would not claim to be a PvPer myself); my MSCA account is built for power leveling -- put the first 1000 into ENG and am now pushing STA to the same. Have added nothing to ATT/DEF other than the demi-power's blessings to open the quests.

Although built for leveling, I actually don't play it that way -- only twice per day and got tired of dragons so working on the other Monster Achievements as well as trying to complete all the quests, rather than focusing on those that give XP.

Personnally, I found it much more boring to play (which is largely why I only play it twice per day) -- but this thread has renewed my interests -- if the Holy Grail exists, of course I want to acquire it for myself! :D

igtenos
05-28-2010, 11:04 AM
I'm a better power leveler, but then I can use my laptop at work so maybe that's an unfare advantage. :D

151 and it's not even 3 weeks yet. GG Duel cefka's champion.

But you have way more skill points than I do. Getting close to the 1000 energy mark though.

Patrick D
05-28-2010, 11:51 AM
Got some interesting news here, 2000 energy is not the maximum cap for energy refills. Someone with more than 2000 energy refilled his energy and it didn't stop at 2000.

Dave O
05-28-2010, 12:21 PM
Got some interesting news here, 2000 energy is not the maximum cap for energy refills. Someone with more than 2000 energy refilled his energy and it didn't stop at 2000.

Perhaps better suited for a new topic; however, it is relevant to the present discussion and I like to keep things together ...

A quick question on Serpent Battles:

I know that one can fortify in a Serpent battle even if the Fleet is at full Health; you get some XP but you fortify for 0 health. Question: does that improve your chances at getting a FP? Or is it based on the amount that you Fortify?

RAUKO
05-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Got some interesting news here, 2000 energy is not the maximum cap for energy refills. Someone with more than 2000 energy refilled his energy and it didn't stop at 2000.

Are ABSOLUTELY sure about that? That would be a major point consider in developing the character strategy. Please more info on the case. 2nd time I hear that, would like very much that to be true. Still skeptic, though :(

Patrick D
05-28-2010, 12:42 PM
I know that one can fortify in a Serpent battle even if the Fleet is at full Health; you get some XP but you fortify for 0 health. Question: does that improve your chances at getting a FP? Or is it based on the amount that you Fortify?

It would seem logical if it is based on the amount fortified, but I haven't tested it or anything. You could try fortifying a serpent at full health and do nothing otherwise, if you get no loot you know that it is not a good idea to fortify a serpent at 100%. I'm not willing to waste my energy for that though, I would be very suprised if you could get FP just from fortifying for 0 health.

RAUKO
05-28-2010, 12:43 PM
Perhaps better suited for a new topic; however, it is relevant to the present discussion and I like to keep things together ...

A quick question on Serpent Battles:

I know that one can fortify in a Serpent battle even if the Fleet is at full Health; you get some XP but you fortify for 0 health. Question: does that improve your chances at getting a FP? Or is it based on the amount that you Fortify?

No. Based on combined dmg/fortify. Anyway, serpents are good FP, it is not a problem to farm 10 FP per level. I suppose things get tough the moment you need 2-3 or more refills to level up.

Patrick D
05-28-2010, 12:47 PM
Are ABSOLUTELY sure about that? That would be a major point consider in developing the character strategy. Please more info on the case. 2nd time I hear that, would like very much that to be true. Still skeptic, though :(

Well someone whom I know has a LOT of energy tested it and said a refill brought his energy up to 2025 which is his current max, and I don't think he was lying.

RAUKO
05-28-2010, 12:58 PM
That would be just GREAT :)

Dr Devious
05-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Well someone whom I know has a LOT of energy tested it and said a refill brought his energy up to 2025 which is his current max, and I don't think he was lying.

we talking fp refill? because i know level refill has no cap.

Patrick D
05-28-2010, 05:19 PM
we talking fp refill? because i know level refill has no cap.

Yes we are talking about an FP refill ofcourse.

Lord Dufduf
05-29-2010, 08:05 AM
A great guide for balanced players, while still a useful guide to another kind of build. The fundamentals of CA are greatly exploited to the players' pleasure! What a good way to enjoy the game.

Thanks for the complement.

I figure the best way to enjoy the game is to have the knowledge. Then choose your path. If you follow my advise 100% to the letter or not: not the point. At least now the newbies will know what they are getting themselves into. And can build a character to their own personal liking, without fear of failure.

It's a game. If it's not fun why play?

Moev
05-29-2010, 08:40 AM
I have been doing some average testing over the past few weeks since I started playing this game. Having Exceled in other games which were similar (which any game is similar really if you think about it, it is really just about numbers and ratios) I noticed that overall you get more exp and level faster with usage of energy over stamina. However with the addition of the new buttons for higher level usage of stamina and energy, 1, 5, 10, 20, 40, ect, I noticed that the ratios are extreemly messed up the higher useage of output you go.

As sweet spots go I found sofar that with Stamina it is better exp to use level 10 Stamina output and energy as well. Energy really drops in the ratio of exp vrs output once you go to energy 20 and 40 ect.

With the addition of Barbarus as a General this now kind of skews the OP's idea of 300 rule, as with usage of this General males having only 300 energy or stamina less then ideal as a mininum.

In case your not familar, Barbarus costs 3 X's the stamina or energy for 3 X's the output.

This makes deciding what your goals in the game extreemly important with constant new updates such as this one. Really if 300 was a bare mininum before Barbarus, now that it is after the fact it would make sence for it to be 900.

Really this General is for higher usage players who have stats of 1000's to help make their day faster.

Have any of you tested this General out yet and payed attention to the averages and cost factors?

As a Hammer I find him pretty useful for when I need to inflict a huge amount of damage with extreemly limited time, but other then that its just for show.

Lord Dufduf
05-29-2010, 09:48 AM
Right energy first. But stamina has the added advantage that eventually you will be able to engage 10 dragons at one time, and climb in battle rank (if it interest you).

Keep us posted. Do your results in Excel.

Here is an example, different subject matter but just to give you an idea. learn from Azraelswrd (page 8, post 77)

http://174.37.115.166/cforum/showthread.php?t=11730&page=8

Moev
05-29-2010, 04:10 PM
I think overall Lord your Op was pretty sound advice, I have seen a few people nit pick over minor details, but like I said overall it hits the nail on the head.

Comming from a brand new player (who your right, could care less about how the game used to be) the majority of newer players could care less about PvP and most do not even have a clue about the benifits of PvP, they see constant CTA's and want to help their new friends take down as many monsters as possible.

When I read your post here lastnight it made me laugh abit due to the fact that I have already been working towards this goal without even knowing why, couple questions though on points that were raised by some other posters. Like the slowdown I am expecting when I start to raise DEF to 300, I am already above 300 in Stamina and Attack. I have seen many people say how Def works in incremintes of 200 and I know that I am not looking forward to this downturn on my production.

Is there an added bennifit of having 300 Def instead of 200when your main focus is PvM for the time being?

Otherwise I might be more worthwhile to add the spare 100 on Energy and level faster so it is easier to add the 100 points onto Def.

I'll be the crash test dummy from a new players PoV, and will start keeping some raw data.

Any thoughts or sugestions are welcome :)

Ahmulag Ra
05-30-2010, 04:21 AM
As far as I could tell, every point in defense adds a little to your fortification, it's just that at 200 there's a sudden jump in the amount fortified. I have to admit that I forgot to pay attention to it when I hit 400 defense.

Dave O
05-30-2010, 04:39 AM
As far as I could tell, every point in defense adds a little to your fortification, it's just that at 200 there's a sudden jump in the amount fortified. I have to admit that I forgot to pay attention to it when I hit 400 defense.

Very true -- can't say that I've detected any "steps" at all, just a steady rise at a DECREASING rate ... (admittedly, my "Wall" very rarely gets involved with a a fortification battle since I have acquired all the map pieces -- rather do quests).

But, if ENG is not capped ... :cool:

Lord Dufduf
05-30-2010, 08:04 AM
I think overall Lord your Op was pretty sound advice, I have seen a few people nit pick over minor details, but like I said overall it hits the nail on the head.....


Is there an added bennifit of having 300 Def instead of 200when your main focus is PvM for the time being? ...

Otherwise I might be more worthwhile to add the spare 100 on Energy and level faster so it is easier to add the 100 points onto Def....

Any thoughts or sugestions are welcome :)

Yes I knew there would be nit picking here or there, but the main gist of it is unarguable. If I had to save a poor newbie from the BSI crowd one more time I think I'll scream (and being drowned out on page 9 of 12). I made some bold statements, now time will tell.


300 defense, forget about it !!!! 200 is perfectly OK. The extra 100 has an added befit in PVP type of activities and if later on you want to pump it up, you're still not at 50. But seeing your already at 200, you're good.


I heard the defense tier is 200, then 450 for Bahamut and others. I really don't know only going by what I was told, I simply don't pay that much attention (you think I would).

I don't know what your level is or energy but I would consider 400-600 energy as a mid/long term goal.

But what if you join a slayer group sometime in the next month, and you got all these dragon suddenly available to you then upping stamina could be a priority. In that case 400 energy, stop, 400 stamina, might be a possible path to follow.

It all depends on your goals. But sometime in the next 3, 6, 8 months 600 energy/stamina should be your minimum. You should see 600 eng/stm the same way you are now looking at 200 defense.

Ahmulag Ra
05-30-2010, 03:49 PM
Yes I knew there would be nit picking here or there, but the main gist of it is unarguable.

Of course it's arguable - that's why people have been arguing with it! :D



If I had to save a poor newbie from the BSI crowd one more time I think I'll scream

Oh so altruistic! :rolleyes:

Saving the newbies from the experience of long term veterans. Thankfully, I read more than one thread before I started so I had a good idea of what I wanted to do and how I would go about it.... that method does not include 300 stamina and energy, and I won't be raising those until I have achieved what I want in PvP.

Levelling is a red herring. You just haven't spotted it yet! ;)

How about those newbies that actually care about PvP throughout the game - not just after 6 months of powerlevelling?

I really think you need to take your own word of advice:


It all depends on your goals.

Moev
05-30-2010, 09:09 PM
Well from a new players stand point of view makes perfect sence, I am in the middle of floods and such so have alot going on but I will post my stats and stuff later tonight when I get back, been playing for about 3 weeks now and I just reached level 185 or something around that.

For the most part I can say OP's statements have been bang on the money and has some pretty sound advise. WShen it comes to PvP for the time being a could give a four letter word less lol, my focus is just building up as fast as possible and to strengthen my longterm goals faster.

So glad I read this post because I did things ass backwards and leveled Stamina first and was approaching around 350-400 Stamina, pretty sure my attack and energy is 200+ and think def was around 150. When I am back later I will get the solid number.

Like I said for anyone interested on if this theory work, I'm currently testing it out as we speak. I have already found atleast 80-95% of the advice useful and have noticed a change.

Anyway bbl when I am done removing my unexpected new swimming pool in my basement.

Ahmulag Ra
05-31-2010, 04:08 AM
Well from a new players stand point of view makes perfect sence, I am in the middle of floods and such so have alot going on but I will post my stats and stuff later tonight when I get back, been playing for about 3 weeks now and I just reached level 185 or something around that.

For the most part I can say OP's statements have been bang on the money and has some pretty sound advise. WShen it comes to PvP for the time being a could give a four letter word less lol, my focus is just building up as fast as possible and to strengthen my longterm goals faster.


Therein lies the point. If people don't care about PvP, then they don't need to worry about BSI and should put points into Energy and Stamina. There are hundreds... thousands of posts on this already, so the OP is hardly new (look up LSI for an example). In a week it will drop off the front page. In a month, someone else will write an amazing guide that challenges conventional wisdom, even when it is simply reiterating conventional wisdom from a particular point of view.

I'm not a veteran myself - I've only been playing 3 months or so. You are already 20 levels higher than me. My little brother started playing a month ago, he is already 50 levels above me. I started playing a MySpace account a month ago, that is already 60 levels above my FB account.

Levelling is not a problem early on - it's controlling your levelling so that you get the most SP per level that is important for PvP players. As you don't care about PvP, you have no need to be concerned. If I were you, I would go for 1000 Energy straight away. I did that on MS account and gained 20 levels in 1 sitting (around level 90). The larger energy pool lets you get even more SP's.


So glad I read this post because I did things ass backwards and leveled Stamina first and was approaching around 350-400 Stamina, pretty sure my attack and energy is 200+ and think def was around 150. When I am back later I will get the solid number.

Energy is the thing that gives you levels - stamina's payout is too random to rely on purely for levelling purposes.

I wouldn't worry too much though - you have more fun and get more gear from stamina, while you get more cash and XP from energy.



Anyway bbl when I am done removing my unexpected new swimming pool in my basement.


:eek: good luck with that!

Moev
05-31-2010, 05:36 AM
Yeah its not been too much fun, but think the worst is over, just doing some turns and I will be back in abit

Moev
05-31-2010, 07:19 AM
That very well might be the case, where there are other posts similar to this one and pertain to this sort of idea/concept. However Ahmulag Ra, I did not read, search for, or pay attention to those posts. I had come across this one by dumb luck.

Playing many other similar games compared to this one, I have learned over the years, that A: Everyone has an opinion, B: Usually that opinion is the same as everyones elses opinion (that they are the only ones who are right or know what they are doing), C: Join groups of players (not always but for the most part) is a waste of time, takes your focus away from your real goals and diverts them to others needs.

From what I have seen from the groups I have joined to date and my experience so far with this game, which isn't much, nothing has made me change that opinion.

So I have to give credit where credit is due Lords post not only gave me some interesting insight into the history of the game, made me start to question my goals and gave me abit of direction instead of aimlessly heading into the unknown.

I saw a few similar types of posts before, general help and guidelines sort of thing, however it was the same old story just a new game. Very dry and bored and about 15 seconds into reading it I started to question why did I even bother.

Of course this game is going to change and the developers will throw new changes and hooks into peoples plans, thats part of the fun of playing a game like this. Not strat guide is ever stood the test of time so to speak with any game where the Developers actually make changes and patches to games.

What I took the most out of Lords post (OP) and what made the most sence to me, besides some of the basic math principles which I either A: overlooked, B: was too busy with playing the game and having fun to notice or pay attention to, or C: just never payed attention enough to. This was simply that in order to build in any direction you always need to start from the same place, a solid foundation.

Not that you were doing so, or trying to do, when it comes to people nit picking or focusing on a word rather then the actual point, I would rather say thankyou and good job for taking the time to try and help someone like me and give me something entertaining, easy, and (what is so Epic to find) something which was enjoyable to read.

Who cares if it was already said 10,000,000 times before or will be outdate in a week? Atleast he isn't one of the useless people on my friends list who never send a gift and can never spare the 1 stamina to assit one of the many fights I am in.

It has only been a few weeks but I have already started getting sick of the randomness of the game, the constant invites into groups which want to use me for my might yet do less then nothing to be of any use to me. Except one fight on an Alpha Bahamut I have always been the top in damage (maybe others could have done more then me but they didn't) and usually do more damage then the rest of the entire group of attackers combined.

Atleast I have met quite a few good peoples who make the game worth playing. I just hope that theres more of them out there.

Oh and as for PvP its not that "I don't care about it" ever, just not right now since it is basically meaningless at the start of the game, by the time it becomes important I will be able to defend myself and it will give me something new to look forward to and re-engerize my reason for playing.

Moev
05-31-2010, 07:33 AM
Ok so I just passed level 185, Since I don't really want to give exact figures in case some PvP trolls are looking in a topic like this for future targets I will leave out exact numbers when it comes to Strength and Defence, they are not really high anyway.

Energy is 234, Stamina is 333, Attack is Over 200 and Def is over 150. I didn't really start to do many quests yet which is nice since when I get a free minute I can do those to help power through raising Def up. I was questioning on the value or difference between 200 Vrs 300 Def, however after some thought it would make more sence to level it now earlier while I have rarely issues with stalling on a level and have extra easy ways to help level it faster.

Not sure if anyone has said this before but I have found it useful to start stock piling energy and stamina potions for when I either really need them or a rainy day. Sure comes in handy when your stalled out 50 or so exp away from your next level, saves wasting an 15minutes to an hour out of your day just to level. When I start on my quests I am going to focus on the poyion reward related ones first for this purpose.

Can anyone think of anything useful that I can track and share that you might be interested in? I am hoping to start soon on keeping tabs and the raw data of the difference in stamina vrs energy output for example. Also maybe the ranges of output you can expend at one time as well.

Just let me know and I will do my best to update ya

Lord Dufduf
05-31-2010, 09:18 AM
That very well might be the case, where there are other posts similar to this one and pertain to this sort of idea/concept. However Ahmulag Ra, I did not read, search for, or pay attention to those posts. I had come across this one by dumb luck.

The reason is there ISN'T lots of post similar to this one. I said in my guide that 98% of all advice in this forum is contrary to this. I meant it. Did anyone notice how talking about BSI suddenly disappeared.




So I have to give credit where credit is due Lords post not only gave me some interesting insight into the history of the game, made me start to question my goals and gave me abit of direction instead of aimlessly heading into the unknown.

I saw a few similar types of posts before, general help and guidelines sort of thing, however it was the same old story just a new game. Very dry and bored and about 15 seconds into reading it I started to question why did I even bother.

...

I would rather say thankyou and good job for taking the time to try and help someone like me and give me something entertaining, easy, and (what is so Epic to find) something which was enjoyable to read.


I'm just glad I could help, and thanks for the positive affirmation. You will find the game will play richer and more interesting and you will be able to achieve in a month what would take the other school of thought 6 months or more.



Who cares if it was already said 10,000,000 times before or will be outdate in a week? Atleast he isn't one of the useless people on my friends list who never send a gift and can never spare the 1 stamina to assit one of the many fights I am in.


Sieges Assisted With 1,238. Try that one with a PVP build.



...

I have always been the top in damage (maybe others could have done more then me but they didn't) and usually do more damage then the rest of the entire group of attackers combined.






Energy is 234, Stamina is 333, Attack is Over 200 and Def is over 150


Been playing 3 weeks you say, and already on top of the leader boards. That 333 stamina has everything to do with that. Now imagine if you listen to the slow build school and had 60 stamina.

You already answered it for yourself. I don't need to explain it further. Stamina trumps att/def. Think about it. You have been playing 3 weeks and are on top of the board !! What the heck could you do with 600 stamina. There is a balancing act. But for the most part, stamina wins.

manekoneko
05-31-2010, 11:09 AM
Wow, new information! Thanks....I'll have to study this a little more before I make any substantial comments, but I'm just thankful that there is some information that clearly reflects the current state of the game, and not information that I can't tell whether it's right or wrong because the game has changed (and I don't know what the changes are). But upfront I can tell that this is a radically different analysis from those I've seen before (example: 300 energy?)

Dave O
05-31-2010, 11:25 AM
Did anyone notice how talking about BSI suddenly disappeared.

It dropped because the subject of this build being viable for PvP dropped. If a newbie, is interested in PvP, then this is not the build for them -- many of the others are much, much better.



Sieges Assisted With 1,238. Try that one with a PVP build.

What PvP player would even care?

Level 181 "Prince" with 64,363 Battle Points

Battles Won: 12043
Battles Lost: 129
Times eliminated: 0
Times you eliminated an enemy: 53

Try that with your build. I don't hide, and I only attack 50X per day for demi-points. And ... there are MUCH better battle stats out there -- from those who are serious PvP players.

For the record, the stats you posted earlier (post #38):

Level 202 "Earl" with 46,991 Battle Points.

Battles Won 22430
Battles Lost 3727
Times eliminated 71
Times you eliminated an enemy 229

So, although you have nearly double the number of "Wins", you only have managed to accumulate 3/4 the number of Battle Points as I have -- probably have spent twice as much STA as well.

You have a Win Ratio of 22430/(22430+3727) = 85.8%;
I have a Win Ratio of 12043/(12043+129) = 98.9%

Which do you think a PvP Player would prefer?


Been playing 3 weeks you say, and already on top of the leader boards. That 333 stamina has everything to do with that. Now imagine if you listen to the slow build school and had 60 stamina.

Again, what PvP Player would even care? They don't hunt monsters, they hunt other players. As far as loot drops -- it has been my experience that doing massive amounts of damage on one critter results in less loot per STA spent than spreading it out amongst several monsters.

This guide is fine for a Monster Hunter -- and will even work for the casual PvP player ... but I would not recommend it for a serious PvP player, who actually cares about Wins and Losses.

Ahmulag Ra
05-31-2010, 11:28 AM
Oh and as for PvP its not that "I don't care about it" ever, just not right now since it is basically meaningless at the start of the game, by the time it becomes important I will be able to defend myself and it will give me something new to look forward to and re-engerize my reason for playing.

I agree with absolutely everything else you said apart from the above, and it is a point I have been making throughout. The OP leads people to believe that they will be competitive later at PvP... they won't, end of story. Yes, they might be able to get the achievements by getting a 501 army and chain invading people 300 levels lower, but I don't consider that PvP, I consider it griefing.

There is no reasonable way to come back after having spent 900 points on Sta and Ene - you would never be competitive in PvP play - that is, defeating other PvPers.

Also, it's the early game where you stand the best chance to get your PvP achievements. Post 300 anyone and everyone can chain you, so you are going to be fighting a war of attrition with your BP's. For me, I get at least 100 BP's a day from defensive victories because the hybrids with 501 armies, or 500 in attack can beat most monster hunters, but they certainly can't beat a dedicated PvP build.

On the other hand, once I have hit high king, I can easily start adding more energy and stamina, and my monster attack and fortifies will be very high. I've lost nothing but time, and the time aspect of the game is a requisite for all. Those people who have the patience to play a PvP build will always be in a statistically better position to change their build to the flavour of the month as attack and defense are always going to be necessary.

As with everything, there's a cost and benefit scenario here and the OP and following discussion very much overlooks the costs of their choices. My impression is that it's unawareness of one aspect of the game, and by overlooking it they haven't given the whole picture.

Ahmulag Ra
05-31-2010, 11:33 AM
The reason is there ISN'T lots of post similar to this one. I said in my guide that 98% of all advice in this forum is contrary to this. I meant it. Did anyone notice how talking about BSI suddenly disappeared.

I've been reading this forum throughout this year and I have seen your comments made numerous times by numerous people. You just have a bizarre impression that everyone here forms a collective mass of mono-thought. Have you never read the LSI thread, just as an example?

Secondly, as has been mentioned, conventional wisdom from the collective veterans of a game is most certainly valid and important reading material to understand the game. Your repeated dismissal of it is highlighting that you have a limited perspective of the game and are touting a build based on that perspective.

It's all well and good, but just as many people are going to be unhappy in 3 months time following your advice as those who benefit from it. The authorative tone, and the dismissal of the majority understanding of the game is what is gibing me to reply.

It's not that you are wrong, you are just not completely right, and you are misinforming people from that position.

Talk of BSI disappeared? You must have been ignoring threads about PvP which is the ONLY value that BSI has - another example of the bias of your position. Unless you mean this thread, then of course people stopped talking about it - BSI is for PvP only and your build is defective at PvP.




Sieges Assisted With 1,238. Try that one with a PVP build.

Ummm right. I've assisted with more than a thousand sieges and have a PvP build. It's just 1 stamina, which i think you will find that ALL PvP builds have! ;)

Anyway, hardly an important stat, methinks: I get wtfpwned by 80 people a day, but hey I assisted with 50 sieges today! Go me!



Been playing 3 weeks you say, and already on top of the leader boards. That 333 stamina has everything to do with that. Now imagine if you listen to the slow build school and had 60 stamina.

Again - the focus on one aspect of the game while ignoring the other. Apples and Oranges are both fruit and they are spherical, I give you that.



You already answered it for yourself. I don't need to explain it further. Stamina trumps att/def. Think about it. You have been playing 3 weeks and are on top of the board !! What the heck could you do with 600 stamina. There is a balancing act. But for the most part, stamina wins.

Stamina trumps atk/def for monster hunting - that one single aspect of the game that you seem to have fixed your blinkered view on in order to ignore the fun of PvP.


Again, to any new player reading that ever wants to be competitive in PvP play - take this thread with a pinch of salt and listen to what the PvP players say. 300 stamina and energy out of the gate is going to level you fast and you are going to be lunch for PvPers, hybrids and even Monster Hunters with a high attack - if you like seeing tens of defeats in your home page, go ahead and follow the proferred advice! ;)

Moev
05-31-2010, 06:50 PM
Ahmulag I agree with your earlier reply, it is not only important to be 100% right, however anyone rarely ever is. Also that to me is the key of this topic really, choices and trying your best to make the right ones. Also in the right order.

I didn't just slam 333 Stamina and forget about the rest of my stats either, My energy is just shy of 300, my attack is well over 200 and my def is just shy of 200. I had just decided to get my stamina up before I even read this topic, I mean really, nothing says loving like solo'n a monster or tossing out 26mil in damage while the rest of your group is a combined 22 mil.

I can say I for sure do not understand or see the benifit of PvP, I would say that most new players like me who do not have a clue and have never played the game before would really care less about PvP, as the Developers made all in candy in the monster killing field.

That is where your getting the immediate reward of better gear, fast levels, and the WoW factor from slaying monsters.

I am glad I read this post because it gave me better understanding, and got me to focus on just not aimlessly leveling and stamina building. I will have 600 stamina sooner then later, but once everything is 300+ which is pretty soon. What is to stop me from blasting Attack to 1000+? I can afford the downtime to my leveling to even raise Def to atleast 500 in a short period of time.

I do not see how that would not be comparable to a real PvP? How do you distinguish a "Real" PvP anyway?

When it comes to my battle stats mine are: Battles won = 2718, Battles Lost = 611, Times Eliminated = 3, Times You eliminated an enemy = 70.

Hardly reason to hide my head in shame in the world of PvP I would think.

The Resurrection
05-31-2010, 09:55 PM
When it comes to my battle stats mine are: Battles won = 2718, Battles Lost = 611, Times Eliminated = 3, Times You eliminated an enemy = 70.

Hardly reason to hide my head in shame in the world of PvP I would think.

No, no need to hide your head in shame, but here's mine, and btw I am BY NO MEANS anywhere close to some of the top pvp'ers out there. You are a monster hunter though, judging by your build and not a pvp'er at the moment.

Battles Won 38415
Battles Lost 1376
Times eliminated 21
Times you eliminated an enemy 382

Everyone plays the game in their own way and I am not sure how there can be a "right and wrong", which for me renders this entire thread a little meaningless. If I had blasted energy and stam, I wouldn't have got my stats where they are, others wouldn't give two hoots about battle stats, but thats's the point... It was WHAT I WANTED to achieve, not what someone told me to.....

This isn't a flame at the OP either... The points raised are well written. Just that everyone holds a different view - Maybe best just to leave it there!

Moev
05-31-2010, 11:01 PM
Well when it comes to battles those are alot higher then mine, I just wonder how long you have been playing for? What kind of battles does that include, I mean were you doing 1 on 1 battles or doing a raid where you could rackup a ton of wins.

I would think that in the world of PvP that stats do not always mean that much because someone like myself could just take a week and go and blast a few raids and be well over 50,000 wins. I doubt it would even take me a week to get there.

All those ladder levels in battles do they actually mean anything? I was racing up there for abit but my attention is elsewhere for the moment.

If anything I would consider myself a Hybrid, because even though I can Hammer out a ton of damage on multi monsters at the same time I can also for the moment hold my own when it comes to battles, and I haven't even started using all my energy to help me level faster yet. Usually getting sucked out in one of the monsters I am slaying.

I like the freedom of having the options available to me of deciding just which role I would like to play.

Could I go and spam my energy upto 1000 or 2000 or 3000+, sure but to just me personally that is kind of lame and boring as if I were to enter say a Hydra fight, well I am pretty much useless. It's stamina only.

Vice versa when it comes to heavy on stamina, I have been in fights where there is tons of Hammers yet no healers, we are all just looking around at each other like we are fighting over a steak when we finally see the health bar rise.

What I personally like about this system is the fact that if I am ever stalled or have issues come up I have about two days where I wouldn't need to log on once and I would fully refill every stat overtime. Compared to some friends of mine who have like 50 stamina and 300+ energy, they have to constantly check in every hour or two, otherwise they are wasting their stamina waiting around for their energy to refill.

If someone raises their attack to say 1000 or 1500, what is the harm if you are a PvP and you dump 300 points into stamina or energy? If you have that level of attack or defence and you are getting beat up all the time I doubt that 300 points will make a difference.

Building with a purpose such as this method or your own twist on this method, atleast gives you some focus, and just because you have balanced yourself out at 300 in all four stats, I do not see why this will suddenly cripple you to the point where you will never be able to do anything worthwhile at PvP?

Keep in mind that this is from the point of view from a pretty brand new player to this game and I am sure there is a large majority of new players who would be thinking along the same lines.

Dr Devious
05-31-2010, 11:08 PM
the biggest problem with pvp build is it not the best at pvp. the high level players are, fact is 95% of pvp builds haven't hit the gauntlet yet many don't even wont to, want does that tell you?
then there's pvp players who go on about cc levellers whilst having all the chess generals lol, the best way to power level is high energy, for monster huntting it's high stamina but for pvp bsi is not the best build,

Osiris0716
05-31-2010, 11:46 PM
Personally, I prefer PVM to PVP. NONE of my characters are even close to level 300, so I think I still have time to "change my ways". Thank you for the advice. It is repsected and appreciated.

Moev
05-31-2010, 11:54 PM
See as a new player I am still abit confused about just what PvP has to offer, I still have not got a proper answer either. Is it just stats on a board or is there something actually worthwhile to be achieved? Such as items/gear/achievements (every method of play have these achievements). I am still abit confused, even more so when PvP's start to disagree between themselves about their method of building.

If the main goal of PvP is to be able to say to others, wow look at me I am the best I am soooo L33t, then *Yawn* been there done that.

Moev
06-01-2010, 12:51 AM
For ease sake and since some generals use 3 times the stamina, I am going to start in blocks of 300.

Starting with general Barbarus using 10 Stamina per attack times 3, fighting monster Genesis.

1: 77 Exp, 78, 56, 70, 63, 25, 101, 101, 28, and 79 for a total of 678 exp for 300 Stamina. That is an average output of 2.26 exp per 1 stamina output.

2: 30, 48, 52, 39, and 31 exp for 150 Energy, which is comparable to 300 Stamina, for a total of 200 X 2 = 400. The average output is 1.33 for 1 energy output.

This is the first time I have noticed Stamina out performing Energy. I have a feeling it is due to Barbarus, I will use a different General next time.

Dave O
06-01-2010, 01:21 AM
When it comes to my battle stats mine are: Battles won = 2718, Battles Lost = 611, Times Eliminated = 3, Times You eliminated an enemy = 70.


hmmm ... if I only had an 80% win record in PvP, I think I'd stick to fighting monsters too. :rolleyes:

Moev
06-01-2010, 03:00 AM
Is that the best you can come up with dave? Go take a few days and think up something more useful and productive to add to the debate, then come back and share that with us.

I take it from the lack of replies with regards to the actual useful aspects of a PvP build other then a stat sheet to brag to your friends about, players such as dave...., things like oh I don't know.... "hmmm ... if I only had an 80% win record in PvP, I think I'd stick to fighting monsters too." and other such coments, leaves me to believe that there is no actual useful aspects.

Call me crazy but I think I will be much too busy having fun and killing monsters and getting good gear items to help me out in the game, to worry about or to pay attention to some tired old dinosaurs, who are stuck in the past and refuse to admit that the game changes so they need to grow with it and adapt, that will attack me and leave a small blip on my facebook radar with some PvP attacks. Probally would only be able to attack me between 1-5 times due to the fact that my energy is so low from fighting monsters.

Well I wait for some replies from PvP's, me and my PvM Hybrid with only an 80% win record will be over in the corner cowering in fear.....

Tool.... Lol

EpiQC
06-01-2010, 04:00 AM
Those people who have the patience to play a PvP build will always be in a statistically better position to change their build to the flavour of the month as attack and defense are always going to be necessary.
Hum.. quite the opposite. It's easier to adapt to the game if you have higher energy and stamina, because they're the resources of the game! Hence why building a strong base is very important at first. Those are the stats that allow you to level up faster. Leveling faster allows you to gather more skill points. If health suddenly becomes more useful than every other stat, who will be able to collect more skill points the quickest to take advantage of that change? The one with more energy and stamina, of course.

Attack will always be necessary? Say that to dragons and Keira. When they were first introduced, attack had no effect on the damage done. It was only updated later, and even now stamina is the only relevant stat for dragon loot!


Secondly, as has been mentioned, conventional wisdom from the collective veterans of a game is most certainly valid and important reading material to understand the game. Your repeated dismissal of it is highlighting that you have a limited perspective of the game and are touting a build based on that perspective.
Argumentum ad populum.. so many fallacies in this short paragraph.

MichaelSeth
06-01-2010, 04:07 AM
To me, the attraction of PvP is the fact that you really are competing against real people and not against a set of parameters that define a monster. For a given monster, I know that if I click button X a certain number of times it will die. Many monsters also require more people than just me and often require careful coordination between those people but what is required to succeed is still pretty well known and clear.

With PvP you see level, army size, rank and their army and equipment types. There is a human being behind those numbers and within certain restrictions there is a wide range of things that that human could have done. Have you done better with your options? Only one way to find out. The continual competition between people causes those who want to succeed at PvP to continually improve. Maybe I failed against someone last time but now I've improved somehow. Maybe they've improved too.

I find the never ending race to improve my PvP power as compared with everyone else a more interesting challenge than the challenge of killing monsters successfully. Not that I dislike bashing monsters.

EpiQC
06-01-2010, 04:18 AM
hmmm ... if I only had an 80% win record in PvP, I think I'd stick to fighting monsters too. :rolleyes:
That's what I mean by "PvP attitude". Get off your high horse, you're not better than anyone.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:27 AM
Hey Moev - just replying to some points you made:



I can say I for sure do not understand or see the benifit of PvP, I would say that most new players like me who do not have a clue and have never played the game before would really care less about PvP, as the Developers made all in candy in the monster killing field.

Well, I am a new player too - and my first entry into CA was rewarded with a constant stream of defeats every day. For me, that's a game killer if I can't even respond to attackers.

So I restarted, and this time focused on building my defenses and found that I gained a lot of pleasure from watching people bounce off my walls! :)



That is where your getting the immediate reward of better gear, fast levels, and the WoW factor from slaying monsters.

In my brief foray into WoW, the majority of my friends focused on PvP - especially when the PvP gear came out (a few months after release).


Another perspective on this Moev, and to give you some insight into the minds of those who do focus on PvP. We tend to find that challenging another person to combat is more stimulating that challenging a monster that can't even hit back. Monsters are a 'click-fest', collect lewt, rinse and repeat.



I am glad I read this post because it gave me better understanding, and got me to focus on just not aimlessly leveling and stamina building. I will have 600 stamina sooner then later, but once everything is 300+ which is pretty soon. What is to stop me from blasting Attack to 1000+? I can afford the downtime to my leveling to even raise Def to atleast 500 in a short period of time.

I do not see how that would not be comparable to a real PvP? How do you distinguish a "Real" PvP anyway?


This is the aspect that the OP missed. The actual numbers are largely irrelevent without adding in the factor of the level. If you have 300 in energy, 600 in stamina, you are going to be level 300+. That means you will be in the arena, and anyone can attack you. So you start working on attack and defense, and invade monster hunters with small armies. As you accrue battle points, other people who have spent those 1500 SP's into attack and defense are going to make short work of you. For every 10 points you gain, you will lose 5. You will still be able to climb the ladder, but you will have to do so by griefing non-PvPers by chain attacking Monster Hunters, and you will constantly fight a war of attrition as your BP's accrue.



When it comes to my battle stats mine are: Battles won = 2718, Battles Lost = 611, Times Eliminated = 3, Times You eliminated an enemy = 70.

Hardly reason to hide my head in shame in the world of PvP I would think.

No not at all, but in the same respect, you are what.... a Champion? No one is bothering to attack you as they are fighting people with higher rank. As your rank progresses, you will find that you become a target... particularly for chain-attackers if you can't bounce them.

If you look at the OP's battle stats, you can see 2 things from the number of battles compared to the battle points. 1) He loses nearly as many BP's as he gains. or 2) He bottom-feeds, chaining lower ranks/smaller armies.


At the end of the day though Moev - if you are just not interested in PvP, then don't do it! The safest way to avoid PvP is usually to not partake in it! Some people will still farm you occasionally for demi-points, but beyond that no one is going to waste their stamina if your rank is low!

Cheers

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:35 AM
See as a new player I am still abit confused about just what PvP has to offer, I still have not got a proper answer either. Is it just stats on a board or is there something actually worthwhile to be achieved? Such as items/gear/achievements (every method of play have these achievements). I am still abit confused, even more so when PvP's start to disagree between themselves about their method of building.

If the main goal of PvP is to be able to say to others, wow look at me I am the best I am soooo L33t, then *Yawn* been there done that.

It's a game Moev - you play for your own goals.

I could as easily ask "why do Monster Hunters bother?" All they are going to do is keep fighting a limited number of monsters for gear that will give them an extra few damage on the next 1000 monsters they hunt - yawn.

Also, you are falling into the trap of the OP - why are you referring to all PvP's as if they follow a standard template? They don't - that's simply in the imagination of the OP. BSI, as an example, is not a law, it's a guide to show you how you stack up for your level. You can go all attack (and be a formidable Monster Hunter too), you can go for a Wall build like Dave and bounce everyone who knocks on your doors, you can go for a balanced build like mine with enough combined stats to bounce the majority of incomers while also being able to retaliate more effectively.

It's a strategy game - PvPers like the strategising. Dave and I have written thousands of words to each other discussing elements of our strategies - that's where we get our pleasure.

As I am level 160ish, and have been playing for 3 months - do you really think that I consider myself to be the best, or 'l33t'? Of course not, I am playing for fun, just the same as you, and just the same as the OP. It's just that I draw my fun from a different source than you, and that is the beauty of this game! ;)

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:39 AM
Is that the best you can come up with dave? Go take a few days and think up something more useful and productive to add to the debate, then come back and share that with us.

I take it from the lack of replies with regards to the actual useful aspects of a PvP build other then a stat sheet to brag to your friends about, players such as dave...., things like oh I don't know.... "hmmm ... if I only had an 80% win record in PvP, I think I'd stick to fighting monsters too." and other such coments, leaves me to believe that there is no actual useful aspects.

Call me crazy but I think I will be much too busy having fun and killing monsters and getting good gear items to help me out in the game, to worry about or to pay attention to some tired old dinosaurs, who are stuck in the past and refuse to admit that the game changes so they need to grow with it and adapt, that will attack me and leave a small blip on my facebook radar with some PvP attacks. Probally would only be able to attack me between 1-5 times due to the fact that my energy is so low from fighting monsters.

Well I wait for some replies from PvP's, me and my PvM Hybrid with only an 80% win record will be over in the corner cowering in fear.....

Tool.... Lol



See now you are starting to fall into the same ****y tone as the OP, and my interest in responding to you in a friendly manner is waning.

Suffice it to say that YOU don't enjoy 1 aspect of the game, but other people do. Stating that their enjoyment is about puerile e-peen waving will only net you the same responses as the OP.

Again, I could just as easily point out the futility of your Monster Hunting build - what are you going to do? Kill more monsters? Do 200 more damage per swing? Get more loot just to farm more monsters fractionally more effectively? At what point does all that become boring? Or, to follow your own responses, is it all just about showing off by having the highest damage number on a monster?

Of course, I don't actually see it that way, but if we are going to do reductio ad absurdum then it goes both ways.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:47 AM
[color=#663300]Hum.. quite the opposite. It's easier to adapt to the game if you have higher energy and stamina, because they're the resources of the game! Hence why building a strong base is very important at first. Those are the stats that allow you to level up faster. Leveling faster allows you to gather more skill points. If health suddenly becomes more useful than every other stat, who will be able to collect more skill points the quickest to take advantage of that change? The one with more energy and stamina, of course.

You will not be able to adapt to a PvP build after having spent 1500 SP's in stamina and energy - simply repeating it as a mantra does not make the blindest bit of difference.

You can't subtract points you spent. Attack and Defense are always good and you cant actually have too much of them. Stamina and Energy are the stats to ponder and to choose where you want to stop because every point you spend there you can't spend in attack and defense, meaning your ability to respond to attacks and to attack others is going to be lower throughout the game. If at level 600 you decide you want to switch from your high energy/stamina build to a PvPer, it will take you months to even become remotely competitive, and you will also be constantly fighting a war of attrition with your BP's. You may well be able to suck that up with a high stamina, but by then, the only value of going for PvP would be to get your achievements - with so many losses, you wouldn't really consider yourself a PvP build.



Attack will always be necessary? Say that to dragons and Keira. When they were first introduced, attack had no effect on the damage done. It was only updated later, and even now stamina is the only relevant stat for dragon loot!

It's funny how in the next paragraph you refer to a logical fallacy (even when this isn't a formal discussion), yet here you are using reductio ad absurdum.

So the reward from dragons is not based on attack.... you still do more damage per swing with it allowing you to be a more effective contributor while doing your calculated number of PA's on the dragon.



Argumentum ad populum.. so many fallacies in this short paragraph.

When we're having a formal discussion, I will watch out for logical fallacies.

However, you seem to have completely ignored that it was a response to the OP who continually goes on about the mainstream/collective/majority, so I was referring to that - please try to read the thread before you start chucking logical fallacy claims around! ;)

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:54 AM
That's what I mean by "PvP attitude". Get off your high horse, you're not better than anyone.

It's funny because throughout this thread certain people have made loads of antagonistic comments about "PvPers', as if we're homogenous group-thinkers, yet when someone responds in kind you get all upset over it.

You also seem to ignore the simple fact that both Dave and I have Monster Hunter builds on My Space.

We are perfectly well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of both.

However, this thread is extolling the virtues of unanimously diluting builds so they all have 300 in everything. A percentage of new players who follow this are going to one day realise that they've shafted themselves. They won't know it yet because they don't know their goals. That's why my advice to new players is always "120 energy and stamina as soon as possible as this gives you a solid platform to work from - by then you can decide if you like PvP or Monster Hunting and start to push your build that way" - that's quite a bit different than the stereotype the OP pushed on us. If you don't believe me, feel free to review my post history - I spend a lot of time trying to help out newbies, and my advice is always aimed at a balanced start to allow the build to grow without redundancies and weaknesses to a point where the player hopefully knows enough about the game to make their own decisions. That making decisions is the fun part of the game, and the constant barrage of people in this thread making ridiculous comments about the mentality of PvPers is missing the point by miles.

EpiQC
06-01-2010, 05:17 AM
You can't subtract points you spent. Attack and Defense are always good and you cant actually have too much of them. Stamina and Energy are the stats to ponder and to choose where you want to stop because every point you spend there you can't spend in attack and defense, meaning your ability to respond to attacks and to attack others is going to be lower throughout the game.

If at level 600 you decide you want to switch from your high energy/stamina build to a PvPer, it will take you months to even become remotely competitive, and you will also be constantly fighting a war of attrition with your BP's. You may well be able to suck that up with a high stamina, but by then, the only value of going for PvP would be to get your achievements - with so many losses, you wouldn't really consider yourself a PvP build.
Switch attack/defense with stamina/energy, and I can say the same too. You can't subtract the skill points you spent. Energy and stamina are always good. Yes you can have too much of them, I'll give you that, but at 2000/1000 you can go a long way. IIRC, stamina ruled in the arena, which was a PvP-oriented event! How do you explain some hardcore PvP players failed at obtaining the highest rank in a PvP event?

"with so many losses, you wouldn't really consider yourself a PvP build."

How would you know?

I'll say it again, there is no such thing as a "character class" in this game, only 5 attributes. Being a PvPer doesn't mean you have to put 99% of your stat points into a/d, it only means you enjoy fighting other players. I have 1715 energy and 115 stamina, 8 attack and 180 defense, 100 health, and I'm a PvPer. Because I enjoy that aspect of the game. So you may have more a/d than me, but that doesn't mean you're better at PvPing, it only means you can beat me. Nuance.

How are you more a PvPer than me?

I appear on the battle list, other players can attack me whenever they want, I can attack other players whenever I want, I can farm BPs, I can rise up in the ranks, I can buy PvP items, etc. Again, there's no such thing as a "character class" in this game.. well except for the next gen monsters but that's another subject. I can win and lose fights, but so can any other "PvPer"; there's only a handful of unbeatable players, and they're CC users. I also probably spend as much stamina each day in PvP as you, or any other "PvPer", do.

And with all that, you still haven't answered my question. Who's going to be able to adapt the quickest, if health ever becomes a useful stat? Someone with 120 energy and 50 stamina (but with over 2k combined a/d, wow!!), or someone with 2000 energy and 1000 stamina? Seriously..


So the reward from dragons is not based on attack.... you still do more damage per swing with it allowing you to be a more effective contributor while doing your calculated number of PA's on the dragon.
What's the point in doing more damage per swing, when the monster's health is fixed at 1000 PA (for Ancient Red Dragons)? Achievements, that's it, and they're limited. But even with a base attack of 1, it only takes about 40 PAs to reach 100k. 40 is also a good number for FP drops, so why does it matter?


However, you seem to have completely ignored that it was a response to the OP who continually goes on about the mainstream/collective/majority, so I was referring to that - please try to read the thread before you start chucking logical fallacy claims around! ;)
Lol, ad hominem now? You'll notice that I've been very active in this thread. I decided to quote you, and not the OP, because you were the one challenging his words with fallacies. It's his thread after all.

I never said I agreed with him though. Personally, I think 300/300/300/300 is bad, but for different reasons.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 06:19 AM
Switch attack/defense with stamina/energy, and I can say the same too. You can't subtract the skill points you spent. Energy and stamina are always good. Yes you can have too much of them... How do you explain some hardcore PvP players failed at obtaining the highest rank in a PvP event?

Energy and stamina are not always good if your goals are PvP - why do we keep needing to do this apples and oranges line of discussion? As you said - you can have too much of them, especially if you aim to be competitive in PvP.

I have no idea about the Arena - I joined it 3 days before the end and got the second highest tier. What I do know about it is that it had a resounding design flaw! When the devs constantly permit hiding, it throws all calculations out the window. If someone with 200 stamina can stam dump then hide so they can't get retaliated against, then the 'PvP' aspect of it is not represented well.

I am sure anyone could get to High King even with 0 def and attack simply by hiding all the time - but, as I have continually pointed out, this is not 'PvP' in my book. The PvP I enjoy is equal competition between 2 humans - I don't hide, I don't bookmark, I don't chain more than 5 times unless the person is a MUCH higher tier than me. The enjoyment value comes from competing with another human, not from exploiting a game mechanic to falsely inflate battle points beyond the build's actual statistical strength. To me, that's pointless play, and it is sad to see the CA devs do nothing about it.



with so many losses, you wouldn't really consider yourself a PvP build.


How would you know?

How would I know what? I was talking about a hypothetical scenario - the 600 stamina and 300 energy that was mentioned before. 1500 SP's in those and there is no coming back to be a competitive PvP player - by 'competitive' I mean someone who doesn't hide, or lose 50%+ of the BP's they gain from having low PvP stats.


there is no such thing as a "character class" in this game, only 5 attributes... So you may have more a/d than me, but that doesn't mean you're better at PvPing, it only means you can beat me. Nuance.

There is no class, on that we can agree. However, you can, as I am sure you agree, craft your own class by deciding on what you like doing and aiming your stats to excel at that. For example, I might decide that I like being the Healer/Fortifier and push all energy and defense. Is that 'wrong'? Of course not, it's a personal goal and a personal enjoyment. But if someone with much lower energy and defense pretended that they could do that job just as well, they'd rightly be informed of their error. This is what is occurring here. The OP pretends that the person following their guide can one day magically become a competitive PvPer - that's simply untrue and misleads people reading this. If they are not interested in PvP, then this guide is fine.... along with the other 300 guides on exactly the same topics.



How are you more a PvPer than me?

I never said I was - I have a PvP build, that's all I ever said. Other people have been liberally applying labels as they see fit to stereotype. Actually, I am a passive PvP player for the moment. My long term plan was always to get myself into a position where I could rush to the highest tier before entering the arena. I have 40 more levels of preparation (I am going to start at lvl 200), then I am going to spend every stamina point I get daily on battling. Once I hit High King and buy the gear, I will start to expand my levelling capacity. I presume I will get High King before level 250 which will give me a minimum of 250 SP's from levelling, plus around 7 extra SP's per level, i.e. 350 SP's..... meaning I can easily expand my levelling potential prior to entering the arena.


I appear on the battle list, other players can attack me whenever they want, I can attack other players whenever I want, I can farm BPs, I can rise up in the ranks, I can buy PvP items, etc....
I also probably spend as much stamina each day in PvP as you, or any other "PvPer", do.

You probably spend more than me as I only spend the odd points left over after attacking a monster! :p

The biggest wall in the communication here is this constant appeal to stereotypes.

Take Dave as an example. He has a formidable PvP build, impressive battle stats, yet he is mostly a passive PvPer, spending only 50 points a day maximum on PvP. He nets the rest passively.

For me, at least 50% of my victories are passive. I get attacked on average 10 times a day. In my 3-4 months of play, I have only lost to 6 individual people when defending, and 4 when attacking. Ok, one of the people knocking on my door was a glass cannon and spent 10 days chaining me (40 times a day at one point), so I have around 150 losses. However, had my stats been different, any number of those hundreds of people who have attacked me and bounced off my walls could have been another chainer that would have farmed me for days.

Again, we take our pleasure from different aspects of the game. For me, I like waking up and totting up the BP's I gained while I was sleeping! ;)


And with all that, you still haven't answered my question. Who's going to be able to adapt the quickest, if health ever becomes a useful stat? Someone with 120 energy and 50 stamina (but with over 2k combined a/d, wow!!), or someone with 2000 energy and 1000 stamina? Seriously

Again... health?????

The line of argument throughout this thread is flabbergasting.

As an analogy, let's look at WoW as it was mentioned. Imagine a warrior saying to a druid - ahh but you can't wear plate, so you aren't as good as me. And the druid saying - ahh but you can't heal, so you aren't as good as me. They are both missing the point (... and in fact, discussions like this between the WoW community killed any and all interest I had in that game - it was one long e-peen waving competition as far as I could tell.)

That's really the issue with this thread: There's no comprehension being shown as to what being a competitive PvPer entails, just mockery through ignorance from some posters, not pointing at you before you think I am attacking you again! :rolleyes:

So, with the WoW analogy in mind: Why would I care about health??? I don't want more health as it would just allow me to be chained a little longer should someone break my defences.

Even if health became useful - all you are implying is that you would happily dilute your build even further by plugging away at the flavour of the month.

Anyway, what-ifs are irrelevent - what if they completely changed the game so that all the current rules were different? I dunno - I'd need to wait and see. It's not like they are going to introduce an aspect that limits choice by making it so overpowered that everyone follows it. Again, the choice aspect of this game is what makes it so appealing to me and others.


Lol, ad hominem now? You'll notice that I've been very active in this thread. I decided to quote you, and not the OP, because you were the one challenging his words with fallacies. It's his thread after all.

What ad hominem for christ's sakes? Can you hold a discussion without throwing logical fallacies around? It wasn't even an ad hom for all that's holy, so if you are going to keep a list of logical fallacies, can you at least make sure you get them right? An ad hominem is an 'argument against the man' - I said:


However, you seem to have completely ignored that it was a response to the OP who continually goes on about the mainstream/collective/majority, so I was referring to that - please try to read the thread before you start chucking logical fallacy claims around!

I wasn't trying to link the validity of the premise to an asserted character flaw on your part. You have quite clearly overlooked the numerous references the OP made to 'mainstream' etc. so you can't have read the thread in entirety - that's not an attack on your character, nor is it an argument based on an aspect of your character. Can we drop these silly arguments by logical fallacy now? Having studied logic, I will be happy to start dishing them back out if we can't. For the second time: this is not a formal debate.

Anyway, I was not 'challenging his words with fallacies' - you failed to read the thread properly - it was the OP who continually referred to the 'mainstream', the 'veterans', the 'majority' and I simply used his references to challenge his points, but you didn't detect it because you either didn't read all the thread or you are engaging in cognitive bias and overlooking the flawed arguments being presented by the OP. I note you made no such comment on his repeated appeals to popularity. Why is that? Please consider that before responding. Maybe look back two or three pages to see what I am referring to instead of working off erroneous assumptions.

(cont)

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 06:19 AM
(cont - bloody 10000 character limit!)



I never said I agreed with him though. Personally, I think 300/300/300/300 is bad, but for different reasons.

I don't think it's bad, I just don't think it's universally applicable, and his barrage of comments about PvPer mentality is what has repeatedly gibed me to reply. Call me strange, but I find tribalistic stereotyping to be a ludicrous position to maintain on a game. "Us" and "them" is pathetic and absurd - we're all playing the same damn game and we're doing it differently! That's fantastic - great - wonderful... it means it is a game rich in variety.

For me, I will continue to help new players by recommending 120 energy and stamina as a base line from which to develop. By that point, they should know what they want from the game, and they can work towards it. In the early game, the only thing you can really do 'wrong' is adding lots of health, and everyone needs some degree of stamina and energy to be able to play and not waste regen while they are offline, and eventually to meet quest reqs. For me in the early game, I could have 50 energy and stamina as I was able to log in numerous times per day - I wouldn't advocate it though, and I certainly didn't choose to do that myself.

Hopefully, people reading this thread are at least getting a more balanced perspective than the OP offered, and those who think they may have an interest in the PvP side of the game will take caution at following the OP's advice.

Lord Dufduf
06-01-2010, 08:36 AM
...
The OP leads people to believe that they will be competitive later at PvP... they won't, end of story. Yes, they might be able to get the achievements by getting a 501 army and chain invading people 300 levels lower, but I don't consider that PvP, I consider it griefing.

There is no reasonable way to come back after having spent 900 points on Sta and Ene - you would never be competitive in PvP play - that is, defeating other PvPers.
....


Of course they can. Every 20 levels is 100 SPs. I can increase my attack by 100 each 20 levels. In 100 levels I can increase by 500. The point has been made again and again that if one player levels faster than the other, the faster leveler will win. Simple math.

Let take an extreme exaggeration. I level 1000 levels in a week. You level 1 time a week, there is no way in ...hello, that you will out PVP or PVM me ever. Never, never, never.

This is of course an exaggeration. But it proves that the limit does exist. It doesn't show where or when it will happen, it just shows that the limit exist. You WILL 100%, absolutely, quantify, be defeated in some point in the future.


Well I made it! :D

"Ahmulag", level 200 Soldier
1000 Max Energy
186 Max Stamina
3 Attack
91 Defense
103 Max Health
203 Army Size

Total Income $112,119,570 / hour
Total Upkeep -$3,880,430/ hour
Cash Flow $112,119,570/ hour

Lots spent on equipment for Undead lands quests.

Still cant get a damn dragon scale. Talking of which, if any of my MS army see this, please go and kill the frost dragon on my wall. 4 hours left and I am out of juice!!:(

I know this is apparently your alt character, but...
just a tad bit hypocritical. So much for 120 energy/stm that you have been preaching this whole thread.

Dave O
06-01-2010, 09:09 AM
Of course they can. Every 20 levels is 100 SPs. I can increase my attack by 100 each 20 levels. In 100 levels I can increase by 500. The point has been made again and again that if one player levels faster than the other, the faster leveler will win. Simple math.

Let take an extreme exaggeration. I level 1000 levels in a week. You level 1 time a week, there is no way in ...hello, that you will out PVP or PVM me ever. Never, never, never.

This is of course an exaggeration. But it proves that the limit does exist. It doesn't show where or when it will happen, it just shows that the limit exist. You WILL 100%, absolutely, quantify, be defeated in some point in the future.


Again, as I have stated so many times, I believe this is where your theory fails. You have yet to demonstrate or convince me that you can maintain a constant leveling speed. As your level increases, the rate at which you level will drop -- and eventually you will be leveling at the same pace as the lower level PvP player -- guaranteed!

I am not guessing -- I have an account on My Space that is all about Energy and Stamina -- haven't "wasted" (from the pov of the Power Leveler) any points on ATT or DEF. And even at level 200+ I am slowing down.

And, if I were to decide that "now I want to do PvP" and start putting the points into ATT/DEF -- I will slow down even faster! I do not think my MSCA Power Leveler will ever be able to defeat my FBCA Wall in PvP -- just won't be able to get there from here -- long before I am able to get my ATT high enough to beat my Wall's DEF, I will have slowed to the same leveling pace and will continue to slow down -- drifting further and further behind. The only way to prevent that is by breaking out the cc (as you have already admitted to have done) -- and that is a different story all together -- anyone can do that.

The Resurrection
06-01-2010, 10:33 AM
Well, for ME at least, given that ultimatly this is a "combat" game... the object was to be a strong PVP player from day one. This meant building a 541 army quickly, building cash to purchase (at the time) gladiator swords/plates etc.. The ONLY way to be amongst the best in my bracket was to pump att/def and not energy/stam.

You will notice that I highlight "me" becasue as I explained before, everyone that plays the game has significantly different goals. Therefore no-one will EVER convince me that simply pumping everything to 300 is the "optimal" answer... No, for me it can't be, as I wouldn't have been close to being a decent PVP player for 000's of levels if I had done so.

I also fight monsters too, and enjoy it. If someone wants to be a pure monster hunter, or even quester, then good luck to them too.

But, for me, PVP is where the fun is, and always will be. The continual "unknown" of whether you can beat an adversary keeps me coming back more than the "static" monster, where damage is always the same. And all the talk of drops and great gear = Well, what is it for??? To make your army better and therefore make you better at PVP ultimatly!! Unless you just like them to look at!

Only my 2 pence worth though - The main thing is that people play and have fun doing so I guess....:D

Oh - and to address a previous post, no, my wins/losses are primarily from the battle fields.. I did do raids until I acquired Chase, but that's it...

Lord Dufduf
06-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Again, as I have stated so many times, I believe this is where your theory fails. You have yet to demonstrate or convince me that you can maintain a constant leveling speed. As your level increases, the rate at which you level will drop -- and eventually you will be leveling at the same pace as the lower level PvP player -- guaranteed!

You raise a very good point indeed. They both regenerate at the same pace so they both will one day get stuck between levels.

Let's make a simple experiment with easy math. A fast leveler will get 40% through a level after he burns all his stamina and energy. It's probably double that as you know from your alt account. A slow leveler will get 20% through a level after he burns the all his energy and stamina.

They will both continue from here on out at the same rate. I'll set that rate as 20%. We will peak in on them every 20% of the level from here on in. It will look something like this:

20 40
20 20
20 20
20 20
20 40


20 20
20 20
20 20
20 40
20 20

20 20
20 20
20 40
20 20
20 20

20 20
20 40
20 20
20 20
20 20

sum sum
400 500

Every 100 units of this scale is a level. The faster leveler has gained 1 complete level advantage in a span of 4 levels.

If I continue the excel spread sheet to 20 levels we obtain this:
sum sum
1920 2400

difference
480

The leveler has now almost a 5 level advantage over the slower leveler.
Even with no level advantage from the start and not allocating of any kind, the trend will continue.

As you yourself are now finding out with your alt character the speed of leveling is far more extreme than this. You stated:



"38 levels in 7 days ... over 5 levels per day; and most of them have come in the past three days."

As the levels get further and further apart, both will get stuck. But once they level the leveler will pull away. Then they are both stuck again. The leveler will level first again and pull further away. The slow leveler will eventually level and make up some ground. But then the leveler will level and pull away again. The wider the gap between levels, the wider the gap the fast leveler pulls away. Bit by bit.

MichaelSeth
06-01-2010, 01:48 PM
Let's make a simple experiment with easy math. A fast leveler will get 40% through a level after he burns all his stamina and energy. It's probably double that as you know from your alt account. A slow leveler will get 20% through a level after he burns the all his energy and stamina.

They will both continue from here on out at the same rate. I'll set that rate as 20%. We will peak in on them every 20% of the level from here on in. It will look something like this:

(Snip numbers)

I see a couple of problems with your model. Firstly, you say that after the initial big push upon leveling, both the slow and the fast leveler will progress at the same rate. I don't think that this is true. Once both the fast and slow leveler have used up all stamina and energy they both regain them at the same rate. The slow leveler will have 80% of their next level to go and the fast leveler will have 60%. The fast leveler will be much higher level so their 60% of their remainder could easily be much bigger than the 80% of the remainder of the slow leveler. As you note, for the fast leveler 40% is probably too low a level completion from a full refill of stamina and it's probably more like 80%. Same argument applies. Eventually the fast leveler's 20% left will be more than the slow leveler's 80% left. At that point the slow leveler will level faster.

Second issue is that the fast leveler can maintain this extra push (40% or 80% or whatever) by putting SP into stamina and energy. Once they change over to filling attack and/or defence their leveling rate will slow down. The slow leveler will become the faster leveler sooner. It should also be noted that in order for the slow leveler to maintain their rate of leveling they need to put something into stamina and energy.

The question is, can the fast leveler continue to go up in levels fast enough to catch up to the slow levels attack and defence in a reasonable time?

To be honest, if the devs have done a good job then no one build should stomp over any other all the time. Given the spirited debate I find here, I think that they have suceeded.

Dave O
06-01-2010, 02:28 PM
You raise a very good point indeed. They both regenerate at the same pace so they both will one day get stuck between levels.

Let's make a simple experiment with easy math. A fast leveler will get 40% through a level after he burns all his stamina and energy. It's probably double that as you know from your alt account. A slow leveler will get 20% through a level after he burns the all his energy and stamina.

They will both continue from here on out at the same rate. I'll set that rate as 20%. We will peak in on them every 20% of the level from here on in. It will look something like this:

<snip>


Unfortunately, this "simple" simulation/experiment does not reflect the "real" situation ... and that is the point I'm trying to make.

First, just for clarification, I do not refer to my MSCA ("Power Leveler") account as an "alt" -- it is very much as real as my FBCA ("Wall"). I do not consider it "inferior" to my FBCA account -- it is simply designed to explore a different aspect of the game.

My FBCA account was set up from the beginning to be a bastion of defence -- I don't like getting pawned and hate getting chained even more. It just happens that type of Defensive build is very useful in PvP -- particularly when defending. But (and this is kind of important); in PvP 70% of my Defense is used for Attack when I am attacking others -- so, my very large Defense is also a pretty high Attack -- I can hit plenty hard, and do! Essentially, during PvP, I'm getting 1.7 points for every skill point I assign to ATT/DEF -- 1 in the attribute where I put the point, and 0.7 in the other -- pretty nice.

My MSCA account was set up to be different -- it ignores PvP, concentrating on ENG and STA to complete quests and level quickly. I did this for a couple of reasons ...

1) I wanted something "different". The two options that came to mind were a "Glass Cannon" that I would play as a true PvP build -- LOTS of ATT; minimal ENG (120) and STA (60?); and no DEF -- I would make use of "hiding" between sessions. The other was the "Power Leveler" -- focusing on ENG and STA to see how far and fast I could go.

2) MSCA was relatively new at the time and had a very small player base. So I thought it might be fun to get on top of the pile so to speak and as there would not be a very large pool of "targets" (there were ~1500 players on MSCA when I started), that a PvP build might not be a good option.

Back to the discussion on leveling speed. In contrast to your example above, one does not maintain a constant 20% or 40% completion to the next level using a ENG/STA dump following a level-up. With each level, the gap gets bigger -- and the wait for points to regenerate gets longer. By leveling faster, the Power Leveler's rate of leveling actually slows down faster -- and eventually, both Players will have the same amount of XP remaining after a dump to get to the next level -- and at that point, they will be leveling at the same rate, once every X hours -- and the Power Leveler will no longer be able to make gains on the PvP Player.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 02:50 PM
Of course they can. Every 20 levels is 100 SPs. I can increase my attack by 100 each 20 levels. In 100 levels I can increase by 500. The point has been made again and again that if one player levels faster than the other, the faster leveler will win. Simple math.

And the moment you start adding to attack, your levelling speed decreases. I know very well too Dufduf - I have experience in playing both builds. Even with huge energy and stamina, your levelling days run out. You may still level faster, but you have a mountain to climb by then. The thousand points in attack and defense will take you months to acquire, while the person that focuses on them in the early game will still level quickly as there's far less XP needed.

This point continually gets overlooked. I've seen it from both ends of the spectrum, as it were, and I am confident in saying that someone who dumps a thousand points in energy and stamina is never going to be a competitive PvPer - all they will be able to do is chain-grief lowbies or other monster hunters with small armies.

Does it net the PvP achievements? Of course, with a lot of extra work. Is it competitive PvP? Absolutely not. And the point is that there are a number of people who simply enjoy competitve PvP play and who find repeatedly clicking on monster attack buttons, collecting loot, then clicking repeatedly on the next monster, to be just a tad boring. Those people who enjoy being competitve in PvP will fail abysmally with your approach. They'd probably end up restarting. That's why I always recommend just 120 nrg and sta as the 1st goal so that the person has a solid platform to start from and can still direct their build towards any preferred goal.




Let take an extreme exaggeration. I level 1000 levels in a week. You level 1 time a week, there is no way in ...hello, that you will out PVP or PVM me ever. Never, never, never.

There's a whole slew of wrongness there. 1) If you level 1000 times a week then you are not going to be in my level range and won't ever be able to PvP with me. Levels = red herring. It'd be nice if you got round to commenting on this point as I have made it numerous times, yet you seem to actively ignore it. 2) To gain 1000 levels per week, you'd need to be pumping energy and stamina. I have a build exactly like that on MS.... is it competitive at PvP? No fricking way - I am everybody's beating post. Now, if I about face and start pumping attack and defense, how many points am I behind? 500? 700? So now I have to spend 100 or more levels just pumping atk/def just to get myself on par with someone hundreds of levels lower than me - are you getting it yet? Meanwhile, it's not like they aren't levelling too and adding to attack and defense. Finally, the PvP build is not trying to level, so they will potentially never get into a bracket where you could attack them. Horses for courses, and your horse doesn't run on the same course and never will.



This is of course an exaggeration. But it proves that the limit does exist. It doesn't show where or when it will happen, it just shows that the limit exist. You WILL 100%, absolutely, quantify, be defeated in some point in the future.

That future is a daydream. With my FB account, I am 3 months in and still only half way to the arena. By the time I get there I don't doubt they will have extended it to level 500, or whatever is conducive to the aggregate levels of the CA populace. As more people climb past level 1000, they will change the bar. Your future is imagined, not a reality.




I know this is apparently your alt character, but...
just a tad bit hypocritical. So much for 120 energy/stm that you have been preaching this whole thread.

Huh?

1) How the **** is that hypocritcal? :confused: I have absolutely, crystally clearly, been talking about PVP builds. My MS account is NOT a PvP build and is everyone's beating post. Why did I play such a different build on MS? Because I wanted to experience a different aspect of the game and I fully comprehend that there is no way to specialise in everything. My FB account is a PvP build and is very successful at what it specialises in, my MS account is a powerlevelling build and is very successful at what is specialises in. My FB account couldn't hope to level at the speed my MS account does, while my MS account could never hope to be a competitive PvP build. Horses for courses.

2) I have preached nothing, let alone throughout. I have simply pointed out the flaws in your reasoning. I have also clearly stated that I never tell people to stay at 120 nrg/sta, rather that I tell them to get there early to ensure they have a solid platform to make choices from. This comment is another of your tribalistic 'them' people who do things 'that' way. You never bothered once to repond to me as an individual, but rather as a representative of a group you constructed in order to set your points against.

3) I am the one who's been telling you that your guide is not ubiquitous and will not satisfy everyone. I have made it clear throughout that I do not consider a single build to be the best, it is you who tried to erroneously push that in your OP. There can be no 'best' when there are different goals and different means of achieving those goals. For this I am glad, if there was actually a single cookie cutter build that was ubiquitously necessary for all newbs, I would have quit within weeks.


Anyway: If you want to make up my arguments for me and then knock them down, go ahead - I don't bother arguing with strawmen.

Again, a glaring lack of comprehension for someone so authoritatively asserting that conventional wisdom is flawed.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Again, as I have stated so many times, I believe this is where your theory fails. You have yet to demonstrate or convince me that you can maintain a constant leveling speed. As your level increases, the rate at which you level will drop -- and eventually you will be leveling at the same pace as the lower level PvP player -- guaranteed!

I am not guessing -- I have an account on My Space that is all about Energy and Stamina -- haven't "wasted" (from the pov of the Power Leveler) any points on ATT or DEF. And even at level 200+ I am slowing down.

And, if I were to decide that "now I want to do PvP" and start putting the points into ATT/DEF -- I will slow down even faster! I do not think my MSCA Power Leveler will ever be able to defeat my FBCA Wall in PvP -- just won't be able to get there from here -- long before I am able to get my ATT high enough to beat my Wall's DEF, I will have slowed to the same leveling pace and will continue to slow down -- drifting further and further behind. The only way to prevent that is by breaking out the cc (as you have already admitted to have done) -- and that is a different story all together -- anyone can do that.


QFT.

This is what the OP has overlooked, continues to overlook, and doesn't seem intertested in taking notice of.

That's only at level 200. If the earlier figures floated by Moev of 1000 energy and stamina were put into play, the character would be around level 600. By level 600 I will have around 2000 attack and defense. How does the OP think he is ever going to reclaim that? Does he think that he can continue levelling forever? It's all just pie in the sky.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 03:00 PM
You raise a very good point indeed. They both regenerate at the same pace so they both will one day get stuck between levels.

Let's make a simple experiment with easy math. A fast leveler will get 40% through a level after he burns all his stamina and energy. It's probably double that as you know from your alt account. A slow leveler will get 20% through a level after he burns the all his energy and stamina.

They will both continue from here on out at the same rate. I'll set that rate as 20%. We will peak in on them every 20% of the level from here on in. It will look something like this:

20 40
20 20
20 20
20 20
20 40


20 20
20 20
20 20
20 40
20 20

20 20
20 20
20 40
20 20
20 20

20 20
20 40
20 20
20 20
20 20

sum sum
400 500

Every 100 units of this scale is a level. The faster leveler has gained 1 complete level advantage in a span of 4 levels.

If I continue the excel spread sheet to 20 levels we obtain this:
sum sum
1920 2400

difference
480

The leveler has now almost a 5 level advantage over the slower leveler.
Even with no level advantage from the start and not allocating of any kind, the trend will continue.

As you yourself are now finding out with your alt character the speed of leveling is far more extreme than this. You stated:



As the levels get further and further apart, both will get stuck. But once they level the leveler will pull away. Then they are both stuck again. The leveler will level first again and pull further away. The slow leveler will eventually level and make up some ground. But then the leveler will level and pull away again. The wider the gap between levels, the wider the gap the fast leveler pulls away. Bit by bit.


Levelling is a red herring for PvP. Red herrings appear to be the most popular fish in this thread.

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that the higher level player also has more XP needed to level. What will actually happen ultimately (sans CC/refills) is that the lower level player will start to level faster than the higher level player, regardless of stamina and energy.

It's unimportant though because.... *drum roll*.... levelling is a red herring. ;)

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 03:16 PM
One more thing I want to reiterate, due to being stereotyped through over-energetic imaginations, is the concept that I 'preach' 120 energy and stamina.

I took the time, unlike some people, to quickly review my posting history in the Getting Started section replying to stat check posts.

99% of my posts, unsurprisingly, start with "well, it depends on what you want to do with the game!". If they specify they want to hunt monsters, lo and behold I advise them to pump stamina and attack. I tailor my replies to the aims of the player, because I realise that there is no one single answer that resolves everything and that pretending there was would be doing a disservice.

Compare that to the OP that extolls the virtues of a single build above all others, which is inherently flawed for a significant percentage of the game, notably, PvP.

Now, who's preaching? :rolleyes:

adam ahman
06-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Which do you think a PvP Player would prefer?



Again, what PvP Player would even care?
This guide is fine for a Monster Hunter -- and will even work for the casual PvP player ... but I would not recommend it for a serious PvP player, who actually cares about Wins and Losses.

Heres the stats of a real pvper that agree's with him...my stats.

level 182 Baron
Quests Completed 6524
Battles Won 13058
Battles Lost 230
Times eliminated 0
Times you eliminated an enemy 107

All pvper's should care!!! My att/def total is 1,100. I don't regret my build because I'm defense heavy for my level. I fortifiy very well. I am at the moment changing my build to a 2000 energy/ 1000 stamina build. I see players like Orlando hit a World Monster getting Mass Damage and still being able to kick 99% of ANY players butt in the game! I want that build. If thats a powerleveler build then so be it. As far as pvpers go...anybody who loves to pvp should know that with that much stamina and energy + 3000 att/def would be on another level :eek:

Patrick D
06-01-2010, 03:54 PM
QFT.

This is what the OP has overlooked, continues to overlook, and doesn't seem intertested in taking notice of.

That's only at level 200. If the earlier figures floated by Moev of 1000 energy and stamina were put into play, the character would be around level 600. By level 600 I will have around 2000 attack and defense. How does the OP think he is ever going to reclaim that? Does he think that he can continue levelling forever? It's all just pie in the sky.

And what you and others continue to overlook is that the real reason why someone with high energy/stamina will always be able to level faster is because of FP farming. 10 FP per refill is enough to make sure you can level as long as you can find enough monsters to hunt and kill. Even with 6 or 8 FP per refill you will always be able to level significantly faster because it takes less time to regenerate enough stamina/energy for an extra 2-4 FP than it would take for a hardcore PvP build to regenerate and farm 10 FP. And a refill won't do much good anyway for a 120/120 build, so there lies another huge advantage to the powerleveller. So write this down: it's all about the FP refills, they make the difference!

There is no pie in the sky, it's right here in my very own hands. :cool:

SirTaylor
06-01-2010, 03:56 PM
Well, for ME at least, given that ultimatly this is a "combat" game... the object was to be a strong PVP player from day one. ....

@ The Resurrection; You are not the only one, you can count me in as one of those who feel that CA is a "combat game" and who plans and plays accourdingly.

adam ahman
06-01-2010, 03:59 PM
it's all about the FP refills, they make the difference!

There is no pie in the sky, it's right here in my very own hands. :cool:

Big thumbs up +1 :D

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 04:03 PM
And what you and others continue to overlook is that the real reason why someone with high energy/stamina will always be able to level faster is because of FP farming. 10 FP per refill is enough to make sure you can level as long as you can find enough monsters to hunt and kill. Even with 6 or 8 FP per refill you will always be able to level significantly faster because it takes less time to regenerate enough stamina/energy for an extra 2-4 FP than it would take for a hardcore PvP build to regenerate and farm 10 FP. And a refill won't do much good anyway for a 120/120 build, so there lies another huge advantage to the powerleveller. So write this down: it's all about the FP refills, they make the difference!

There is no pie in the sky, it's right here in my very own hands. :cool:

Again - look what you wrote 'level faster'.

It's like we are speaking different languages. I have said repeatedly that I have no interest in levelling faster - none whatsoever. I have a powerleveller on MySpace and, truth be told, it is mind-numbingly boring going the quantity route over quality. Woot! I get to click a button another 80 times!

Everyone keeps working under the assumption that their own goals are ubiquitous when it is far from the case, and most definitely the reason why this game is popular and enticing: variety.

Patrick D
06-01-2010, 04:11 PM
Levelling faster = more SP = more defense and attack = PvP pwnage!

The argument here was about whether a powerleveller could overpower a true PvP bsi build in the long run through faster levelling and accumulation of SP. The answer to this question is yes he can. It takes some time and I perfectly understand why people who love PvP don't want to wait until lvl 1000 until they can kick some serious ass but hey, that's not what this discussion is about.

adam ahman
06-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Heres a question for everyone...are Pegasus and Orlando considered pvpers?!
I mean there both High Kings!!
Being the strongest against another player in battle is what I strive for! Both these players are hardcore pvpers too! There build allows them to do everything.
Think about it like this...
How far will ($90=600fp) get you when you have (energy 2k / stamina 1k)
~verse~
($270=1,800fp) get you with the tried and true (energy 120 / stamina 120)

Thats easy math...and please don't tell me you don't buy fp's. Even if you don't I know for a fact that the average old-schoolers, and those that know, farm dragons for fp's. Ok...I think I'm done :o

adam ahman
06-01-2010, 04:19 PM
Levelling faster = more SP = more defense and attack = PvP pwnage!

The argument here was about whether a powerleveller could overpower a true PvP bsi build in the long run through faster levelling and accumulation of SP. The answer to this question is yes he can. It takes some time and I perfectly understand why people who love PvP don't want to wait until lvl 1000 until they can kick some serious ass but hey, that's not what this discussion is about.

Yippers skipper...Powa to the pwnage! :D

Dave O
06-01-2010, 04:43 PM
Heres the stats of a real pvper that agree's with him...my stats.

level 182 Baron
Quests Completed 6524
Battles Won 13058
Battles Lost 230
Times eliminated 0
Times you eliminated an enemy 107

All pvper's should care!!! My att/def total is 1,100. I don't regret my build because I'm defense heavy for my level. I fortifiy very well. I am at the moment changing my build to a 2000 energy/ 1000 stamina build. I see players like Orlando hit a World Monster getting Mass Damage and still being able to kick 99% of ANY players butt in the game! I want that build. If thats a powerleveler build then so be it. As far as pvpers go...anybody who loves to pvp should know that with that much stamina and energy + 3000 att/def would be on another level :eek:

Hey Adam ... pretty similar builds it seems -- I have quite a bit more in ATT/DEF than you do; and achieved the BR of "Prince" -- not sure I'd claim to be a PvP Player though.

Have you considered a MySpace account? Might be easier (certainly faster) than starting from where you are now I'd think?

Any idea of how long Orlando has been playing? I'm as impressed with his performance as anyone -- but I suspect he has either been playing for a long time, or has a pretty healthy CC fueling his build -- perhaps both. And for what it is worth, unless you have a bigger wallet, you will not catch him, I'm thinking.

I suppose my definition of PVPer is a bit narrower than yours.

But, in response to my comment,

"Which do you think a PvP Player would prefer?"

which was directed at Battle Records:

I'd think a PvP Player would prefer a 99% Battles Won record over an 86% Battles Won record; and of course the ideal Win record would be 100% -- anyone who would not is not a PvP Player by my definition.

As to my comment,

"Again, what PvP Player would even care?"

which was in response to being the top damage dealer in monster battles:

I do not think a PvP Player would concern themselves with being the top damage producer against monsters. There is no prize for that -- and in fact, they would rather spread that Stamina out over several monsters to increase the loot drops for outfitting their army.

Ahmulag Ra
06-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Levelling faster = more SP = more defense and attack = PvP pwnage!

The argument here was about whether a powerleveller could overpower a true PvP bsi build in the long run through faster levelling and accumulation of SP. The answer to this question is yes he can. It takes some time and I perfectly understand why people who love PvP don't want to wait until lvl 1000 until they can kick some serious ass but hey, that's not what this discussion is about.

And has already been clearly pointed out to any and all who are interested - competitive PvPers don't give a flying monkeys if a person 1000 levels higher than them can beat them... what they care about is their bracket.

As has already been made clear, the best time to snag your PvP achievements is early on before you hit the free for all where anyone and everyone is at the mercy of the overbeings.

Levelling faster does not equate to more attack and defense, because if you are putting your points into attack and defense then you are slowing down your levelling. :D

It's a funny merry-go-round this thread.

Patrick D
06-01-2010, 05:51 PM
And has already been clearly pointed out to any and all who are interested - competitive PvPers don't give a flying monkeys if a person 1000 levels higher than them can beat them... what they care about is their bracket.

As has already been made clear, the best time to snag your PvP achievements is early on before you hit the free for all where anyone and everyone is at the mercy of the overbeings.

Levelling faster does not equate to more attack and defense, because if you are putting your points into attack and defense then you are slowing down your levelling. :D

It's a funny merry-go-round this thread.

Sigh, you still don't get it, do you? First of all there are no brackets past 300, it's free for all and while you may not care about those 1000 levels above you, they sure do and will kick your ass and thank you for the BP. :p

And secondly, you seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of FP refills and how it makes you level faster, even after you have started putting points into attack and defense. That's what gives them the advantage so their levelling will never slow down as much as the BSI crowd, unlike what you and Dave O seem to think. Even if the Holy Grail doesn't exist (which it does but ok, just for the sake of argument here) powerlevellers will still always be able to level faster while they pump up their defense/attack stats.

EpiQC
06-01-2010, 09:46 PM
And has already been clearly pointed out to any and all who are interested - competitive PvPers don't give a flying monkeys if a person 1000 levels higher than them can beat them... what they care about is their bracket.
If your build is limited by such a restricted amount of "valuable" players to compete with, then it's no wonder you're never going to admit that the power leveler is the better build. Of course I too could stay at base energy of 15 and stamina of 10, pray every day and hope to level from defensive exp. Would that make me a good PvP player? In your eyes, yes. I'd be the ruler of my bracket. Would that make me a good player and strategist? Ultimately, no. The strategy and effort involved are so minimal.

The simple fact that your main argument against the power leveling build is that "it doesn't count because you're higher level than me!" just proves how superior my build is. Especially if I started playing after you and never bought any FPs. You know one day I'll surpass your a/d scores. ;)

Moev
06-01-2010, 11:31 PM
This arguement reminds me of the debate between what is better in the world of fighting, Boxing or MMA (Mixed martial arts for those of you who do not know).

Boxing is similar imo to the arguements of these PvP's, where in the world of MMA you have many more options available to you. Just like the Hybrid powerleveling build has similar qualities.

With a Powerlrvrling build you do not need to be great in any one area, rather good in all. With one dyminsional boxing you can only be good at boxing and everything else does not count.

I had asked if strictly doing PvP has any worthwhile important achievements or gear that you can only obtain from doing a PvP build, still no clear answer so I guess that is a no. On the other hand there is many gear and items you can aquire from doing a power leveling build, you can build to a future of surpassing any "PvPer" with your ability to gain levels at a much faster rate and eventually overtake them at their own game. Sounds like fun to me.

What you are forgetting or just not taking into account is the simple math and ratios. I have already demenstrated with proof how Stamina has out performed Energy as you gain higher levels.

Of course there will be downtime with any build as soon as you start putting stats into anything other then energy. However the effects of this downtime are felt much less to a powerleveler who has 300 + energy and whom has started building up stamina. Stamina, Attack or Def, all 3 have some form of downtime, just Att and Def are more noticable.

The joy of Stamina off setting or even surpassing the early building of all Energy, helps reduce this downtime over a PvP as well. Not to mention if you save your built up FP's for future use when you have downtime and a huge stock pile of potions for stamina and energy your downtime is reduced even further.

With the powerleveling build you can afford to dump your money into the worthwhile land options which increase your gold and give you the stamina potions. If you remain at a lower level with the PvP build you are not able to make use of these until you actually start leveling, which will put you further behind.

Since there is no actual way to know exactly how much experience you will gain from each set number of stamina or energy useage, it is impossible to have an exact number of % a PvP build will be behind vrs a powerleveler build, but the simple fact is that there is more downtime for a PvPer regardless of the difference in the amount of experience it takes to level.

Thus this means that a powerleveling build in fact has an advantage in building and in time will overtake a standard PvP build.

I asked some friends who have reciently started a 300 energy build if they have noticed any change in their downtime now that they are switched to Stamina, unless they get a really bad chain of experience output they even still with the downtime are consistantly 100 exp or less away from each level when they use all their energy and stamina, most cases with some good luck on the wheel of experience from stamina they are in fact even closer and have less downtime.

Usually it takes no longer then an hour or two max to gain the next level and refill. They haven't found the need to use any potions unless they are less then 10 experience levels to the next level.

Because they have done some quests already when they find themselves close to gaining the next level, 1-10 experience away, if they have excess energy available, use it on one of the boss fights which you need to unlock and can always gain their next level with an added 25 or so experience on their next level each and every level.

Simple little tricks which are available to a powerleveler which are not avaiable to a PvP who just starts to level.

As well you can use your daily blessings to start your climb on attack or def once you have started on stamina from energy, or even before, as you are consistantly leveling at such a fast pace that the 10-15 points you get each and every level, you hardly notice that 1 point from blessing each day. Yet it will greatly reduce your downtime in the long run.

Sure the PvP has already started doing this, but at what cost? It clearly has been shown that in all cases the powerleveler has the advantage.

Your only response to this is basically the same thing, you say the numbers are wrong, or that it is a dream, or incorrect somehow. Yet you provide now proof or evidence of any kind to back up and support your arguements. Many have clearly illustrated with hard core facts/numbers like I did, or even went to the extreeme to over simplfy so that even someone who does not know how to do basic math can understand.

The longer the debate goes on the longer it becomes more clear why there are just so many more advantages to starting your playing experience with a Hybrid type style of a build.

Call me crazy but I would rather have more options available to me to have more fun playing this game and a wider scope of experiences in the game, then to be stuck in some sort of cookie cutter, narrow minded, tiny box, form of rules in order to prove that I am somehow better then you.

Looks like the majority of newer players agree which is why the devs started moving towards a monster killing experience.

As for an earlier comment as that I have an attitude against PvPers, is just plain wrong. from the start I asked questions and did not even have my mind made up of which would be better for me, I noticed a few things that the OP said which rang true for the current path I was already building on. It wasn't until Dave made his rather rude and retarded comment about my battle stats only wear at 80% win rate.

So pardon me for pointing out the absurbness of his arguement. BBL

EpiQC
06-01-2010, 11:50 PM
Regarding FP refills and energy vs stamina (this is a repost from another thread)..

Dragons are stamina-based, so there's no point in raising attack.. nor stamina more than as an overflow buffer. This may sound contradictory, but I'll explain why.

As you level up, your leveling speed decreases. That's a given. If you want to continue to level at a steady pace, then you'll need refills. Refills are capped at 1000 for stamina. With 1000 stamina, you can get an average of 6 FPs. Not self-sustaining.

They're capped at 2000 for energy. With 2000 energy and 200 defense, you can get an average of 4.8 FPs. This may not be exactly accurate, as we're still collecting data for serpents. However, as you raise your defense, the amount of FPs you can collect with 2000 energy increase, because serpent rewards are damage-based. With 400 defense, for example, you can fortify for double the amount as 200 defense. So you're now able to collect an average of 9.6 FPs per 2000 energy. Eventually, you may be able to level up perpetually that way.

You can do the same with 1000 stamina and infinite attack farming serpents, but it's just quicker to reach 2000 energy than 1000 stamina, thanks to quests. Also, refills are focused on 1 resource pool, so there's no point in having two huge pools.

Mursilis
06-02-2010, 01:12 AM
Heres a question for everyone...are Pegasus and Orlando considered pvpers?!
I mean there both High Kings!!

No, they aren't. Their goal in PvP was to reach High King, then they went back to PvM which is where they spend 98% of their time. That's a PvM mentality, not a PvP mentality. Therefore they are monster hunters, same as anyone who power levels. Power leveling requires energy/stamina refills. This is done with monster farming for FPs, as explained already earlier. All well and good for a monster hunter, but the second such a person switches to PvP, they no longer level as they used to since FPs cannot be obtained in PvP. As a result monster hunters will PvP only as much as necessary, but their primary goal is PvM. This makes them monster hunters, not PvPers.

The opposite is also true, just because I've gotten just about all of the monster achievements doesn't make me a monster hunter. It means I dauble, but my primary focus is PvP.

Moev
06-02-2010, 02:05 AM
Just to clarify when I was speaking of refills in my above post I was meaning from ataining a new level rather then with FP. You could use points but if you did your build good enough you really shouldn't have to use FP for refills unless your in a hard fight that has limited time.

As for Mursilis's post, someone already made the perfect point earlier in the thread. My stat sheet is the same as yours, I can decide to attack another player anytime I want, same as you. I am attacked by more players and normally I defend those attacks. So I do not see how I do not meet or somehow hold up to these unwritten standards.

From what I have seen sofar in this thread, in order to be considered a PvPer I must conform to your methods of playing the game, have a narrow mind and outlook on the game, and fit into a tight box of a predetermined cookie cutter box style of playing, all in order to be accepted by my peers.

Your really selling your style :) I am sure everyone would rather do this instead of having fun playing the way they want to play and living by their own rules.

I have yet to see any snyde, rude, or smartass remarks from someone who did not deem themselves as a PvPer, even further to that matter they did not try and tell me I was not good enough or somehow do not live upto their standards. Yet I have seen all the above mentioned from the so called PvPer's in this topic.

If I set a goal to reach 10,000 kills from PvP, that is my goal, what gives you or anyone else the right to determine that I am somehow not a PvP, when I am killing other players just the same as you. Same if I wanted a piece of gear, or a percentage of kills vrs deaths, ect.

If those two earlier mentioned players consider themselves a PvP then who are you to say that they are not?

You guys keep talking about "play the game you want to play the way you want to" in one breath, yet in the very next one you try and tear down other players who do not wish to conform to your standards and your methods of thinking about the game.

The funny part is afterwards when people stand up and point out the insanity of these actions, you cry foul and say we are ganging up and attacking PvPers or somehow trying to make you all the same.

Dave O
06-02-2010, 02:14 AM
hmm ... Lord Dufduf sent a pm asking to join my army -- real friendly like. I thought about his motives and decided what the heck. Here is his response:

2 hours, 9 minutes ago:
Victory! You were challenged by ************
You defeated your enemy, taking 6 damage and dealing 9 damage to your rival. You gained 3 experience points and $115,000. You have won 8 Battle Points!

Edit: I have removed Lord Dufduf's CA name -- not sure if that can be used to bm his link -- and it is not my intention to do that. But, I am 100% certain that it is him. :)

And my reply: (invade)

You have won 8 Battle Points! You now have a total of 64,997 Battle Points.
You are victorious in battle, taking 6 damage and dealing 10 damage to your enemy. You gained $115,000 and 4 experience points.
You have earned your max demi points of this type for today! You can earn more of this type by battling in : 3 hours and 33 minutes.

Sort of a waste of 1 STA, but ...

Add: I suppose now we can see how long it takes him to beat me in PvP using his superior leveling speed (if that is his intention). For the record, I am Level 182 (Prince); he is Level 221 (Duke).

Dr Devious
06-02-2010, 02:31 AM
Levelling is a red herring for PvP. Red herrings appear to be the most popular fish in this thread.

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that the higher level player also has more XP needed to level. What will actually happen ultimately (sans CC/refills) is that the lower level player will start to level faster than the higher level player, regardless of stamina and energy.

It's unimportant though because.... *drum roll*.... levelling is a red herring. ;)

if a pvp player can make 30fp a mouth form monsters for oracle generals, and they only have 120 stamina and 120 energy most of which they save for quest, how many do you think i can farm a mouth with 400 stamina and 1400 energy? power levelling is all about fp not levelling speed, as i level and add more stats the amount of fp i can farm will grow, if you think about it do you really believe the high players are buying 5 refills per level?

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 03:38 AM
Sigh, you still don't get it, do you? First of all there are no brackets past 300, it's free for all and while you may not care about those 1000 levels above you, they sure do and will kick your ass and thank you for the BP. :p

And secondly, you seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of FP refills and how it makes you level faster, even after you have started putting points into attack and defense. That's what gives them the advantage so their levelling will never slow down as much as the BSI crowd, unlike what you and Dave O seem to think. Even if the Holy Grail doesn't exist (which it does but ok, just for the sake of argument here) powerlevellers will still always be able to level faster while they pump up their defense/attack stats.

I get it all too well, in fact it was me who made the above point about 12 pages ago! :D

Read again:

I
don't
care

if someone 1000 levels above me can beat me.

Why would anyone care about that? There's really no amount of strategising and planning that could change that fact... oh, except to level slowly, get your PvP achievements before hitting 300, then not give a damn about it afterwards! ;)

Secondly, at risk of repeating myself for the 300th time.... I already have a powerleveller on MS who is set to use FP refills. I think I am in a position to understand the game from both sides of the spectrum.

Notably, this is all a red herring anyway as the OP is about 300/300 which is absolutely pointless with regards to FP refills. But, I think it's red herring spawning season in this thread.

RAUKO
06-02-2010, 03:39 AM
hmm ... Lord Dufduf sent a pm asking to join my army -- real friendly like. I thought about his motives and decided what the heck. Here is his response:

2 hours, 9 minutes ago:
Victory! You were challenged by Lord duf duf
You defeated your enemy, taking 6 damage and dealing 9 damage to your rival. You gained 3 experience points and $115,000. You have won 8 Battle Points!

And my reply: (invade)

You have won 8 Battle Points! You now have a total of 64,997 Battle Points.
You are victorious in battle, taking 6 damage and dealing 10 damage to your enemy. You gained $115,000 and 4 experience points.
You have earned your max demi points of this type for today! You can earn more of this type by battling in : 3 hours and 33 minutes.

Sort of a waste of 1 STA, but ...

Add: I suppose now we can see how long it takes him to beat me in PvP using his superior leveling speed (if that is his intention). For the record, I am Level 182 (Prince); he is Level 221 (Duke).

I would't hold my breath :rolleyes:

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 03:43 AM
If your build is limited by such a restricted amount of "valuable" players to compete with, then it's no wonder you're never going to admit that the power leveler is the better build. Of course I too could stay at base energy of 15 and stamina of 10, pray every day and hope to level from defensive exp. Would that make me a good PvP player? In your eyes, yes. I'd be the ruler of my bracket. Would that make me a good player and strategist? Ultimately, no. The strategy and effort involved are so minimal.

The simple fact that your main argument against the power leveling build is that "it doesn't count because you're higher level than me!" just proves how superior my build is. Especially if I started playing after you and never bought any FPs. You know one day I'll surpass your a/d scores. ;)

What restricted amount of valuable players? I have no idea what you are talking about?

Secondly - NO - a powerleveller is not a 'better' build. For the love of all that's holy, when are you guys going to come to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a 'better' build when there are contradictory goals in the game? If I make a perfect MH build, it's not much use at PvP (except griefing). If I build a PvP build, it's not much use at MHing. Both of them CAN do the other, but, unsurprisingly, they are not specialised to do the other thing.

I will ignore the silly jibes in your 2nd paragraph as I don't get involved in pen i s fencing on the internet. (why is that word blocked? It's the anatomically correct term, and anyone can go and watch Bonobos doing precisely that)

Funny how the comment was made earlier about "PvP's just want to claim they are l33t" yet I have never once done so, and everyone else seems to think they are the dog's nads because they put more SP's into stam and energy. And finally - money where mouth is. When you've got more atk and def then come and knock on my door.

I think you guys need to start the Red Herring Guild.

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 03:46 AM
I had asked if strictly doing PvP has any worthwhile important achievements or gear that you can only obtain from doing a PvP build, still no clear answer so I guess that is a no.

It's funny Moev - I have replied to you 3 times, but you seem to have overlooked it, and 3 times said that no one has responded. :confused:

Yes of course there are PvP achievements and gear.

Go and look in your 'battle rank' for the gear, and in your Achievements for the achievements! :confused:

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 03:50 AM
if a pvp player can make 30fp a mouth form monsters for oracle generals, and they only have 120 stamina and 120 energy most of which they save for quest, how many do you think i can farm a mouth with 400 stamina and 1400 energy? power levelling is all about fp not levelling speed, as i level and add more stats the amount of fp i can farm will grow, if you think about it do you really believe the high players are buying 5 refills per level?

To what end? To level - my post started with the words "levelling is a red herring for PvP".

I know and understand perfectly well what a powerleveller can do - I have one of the highest characters on MySpace.

However, the entire thrust of my dissent from this thread is regarding PvP - not powerlevelling. The point is that the OP shafts the person hoping to be a competitive PvPer. One sunny day in several years time they might just possibly be able to come out on par with me in attack and defense. How proud that moment would be when they are on par with someone 1000 levels lower than them!

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 04:01 AM
hmm ... Lord Dufduf sent a pm asking to join my army -- real friendly like. I thought about his motives and decided what the heck. Here is his response:

2 hours, 9 minutes ago:
Victory! You were challenged by ************
You defeated your enemy, taking 6 damage and dealing 9 damage to your rival. You gained 3 experience points and $115,000. You have won 8 Battle Points!

Edit: I have removed Lord Dufduf's CA name -- not sure if that can be used to bm his link -- and it is not my intention to do that. But, I am 100% certain that it is him. :)

Well, that was mighty polite.



And my reply: (invade)

You have won 8 Battle Points! You now have a total of 64,997 Battle Points.
You are victorious in battle, taking 6 damage and dealing 10 damage to your enemy. You gained $115,000 and 4 experience points.
You have earned your max demi points of this type for today! You can earn more of this type by battling in : 3 hours and 33 minutes.

Sort of a waste of 1 STA, but ...

Add: I suppose now we can see how long it takes him to beat me in PvP using his superior leveling speed (if that is his intention). For the record, I am Level 182 (Prince); he is Level 221 (Duke).

My guess is that around level 700 he might have a chance. Here we have proof of pudding though. Lord Duf Duf has had success in beating down MH builds and overpowering those with smaller armies, so he thinks his build is successful at PvP, whereas you and I, and a couple of others in this thread have been talking about PvP from a competitive point of view. The aim there being to beat people at your own level who are also PvP oriented. Of course I can beat any and all monster hunters of my level, and probably up to a couple of hundred levels higher than me - although some of them might have glass cannons and be able to get through my defenses. None of the respondents seem to get the fact though that competitive PvPers don't give a monkeys about being beaten by people hundreds of levels higher than them.

To reuse an analogy that was a bit off track.... take Boxing as an example. If I want to be the Featherweight champion of the world, do you think I give a damn if a superheavy weight can deck me in 1 punch? :D

One thing I do not understand here is that Lord Duf Duf has been playing a lot longer than double the time I have been playing. I am a self-stated slow leveller, yet he is only 60 levels above me! My MS build is pretty much the same level as him after 6 weeks. Therein lies the amusement with the OP - it's diluted in everything it does. Jack of all trades and master of none. A hybrid guide, like so many others posted here. I also think that before challenging conventional wisdom, one should at least be in a position to have directly experienced what they are talking about.

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 04:05 AM
You guys keep talking about "play the game you want to play the way you want to" in one breath, yet in the very next one you try and tear down other players who do not wish to conform to your standards and your methods of thinking about the game.

Umm no, that's really not how it's happening at all. Your imagination is following the OP's I see. What's actually happening is that 3 or 4 people are using their preferences to make false commentary about the game and that is being corrected. Why would I wish people to conform to my standards? I would get my butt kicked repeatedly if everyone had followed my chosen style of play.

Then, on the other hand, I have already made it clear numerous times that I have a powerleveller on MySpace. So once again, we have yet more tribalistic 'us' and 'them' ignoring the fact that I am also one of 'us' in that sense, but apparently Moev has now firmly joined the 'us' and by making snarky comments about 'them' he can proudly take his place in the group.

Tribalism FTW!


The funny part is afterwards when people stand up and point out the insanity of these actions, you cry foul and say we are ganging up and attacking PvPers or somehow trying to make you all the same.

Bass-ackwards.

Dave O
06-02-2010, 04:20 AM
Regarding FP refills and energy vs stamina (this is a repost from another thread)..

Dragons are stamina-based, so there's no point in raising attack.. nor stamina more than as an overflow buffer. This may sound contradictory, but I'll explain why.

As you level up, your leveling speed decreases. That's a given. If you want to continue to level at a steady pace, then you'll need refills. Refills are capped at 1000 for stamina. With 1000 stamina, you can get an average of 6 FPs. Not self-sustaining.

They're capped at 2000 for energy. With 2000 energy and 200 defense, you can get an average of 4.8 FPs. This may not be exactly accurate, as we're still collecting data for serpents. However, as you raise your defense, the amount of FPs you can collect with 2000 energy increase, because serpent rewards are damage-based. With 400 defense, for example, you can fortify for double the amount as 200 defense. So you're now able to collect an average of 9.6 FPs per 2000 energy. Eventually, you may be able to level up perpetually that way.

You can do the same with 1000 stamina and infinite attack farming serpents, but it's just quicker to reach 2000 energy than 1000 stamina, thanks to quests. Also, refills are focused on 1 resource pool, so there's no point in having two huge pools.

Thanks for that EpiQC. I had seen the bit concerning the dragons; agree with the bit about leveling speed slowing down; but the info on Serpents is what I've been looking for.

Again, there "seems" to be a lack of agreement on whether there is a cap on Energy Refills. Most claim it is capped at 2000 and my "gut" tell me this is so; but, others (or their "friends") at any rate, have claimed that they have refilled Energy for MORE than 2000.

Without a cap, then I'd think there is a very real possibility of getting to a point where you can gather 10 FP from an Energy refill. If it is capped at 2000, then although "theoretically" it would still be possible -- it would be much more difficult, I'm thinking.

Now then having personal experience with a "Power Level" build -- I can say, that without a doubt it is not as much fun to PLAY. I am L212 now and the only way I can "power level" is by dumping ALL my STA on dragons and ALL my ENG on the one sub-quest. Even then, I sometimes fall a bit short and have to wait an hour or two to regenerate enough power to level again. Not much fun and seeings how I have all the dragon Achievements, it isn't gaining much more than the 5 skill points per level.

If, I shift to other critters (for diversity and to gain other Achievements/loot) and/or do quests other than the final sub-quest in the Land of Water in order to complete them and gather those skill points -- my regeneration time between levels sky-rockets to over 10 hours! Good enough for the last run of the day, but if I were not focussed on "power leveling", I would only level a bit more than twice per day at my current level -- and the wait gets longer with each level.

As my immediate goal is to try and test the 2000 ENG cap, I am forcing myself to level as quickly as I am able; but honestly, it is mind numbing doing it -- so, I'll likely limit myself to 3-5 levels per day (if that).

igtenos
06-02-2010, 04:28 AM
What dave said. On a whim I decided to join in on a hydra and spent about half my stamina on it.... Now I have a 200 xp defecit I'll have to likely spend 2-4 hours overcoming.

They really need to do something with the xp rates of world monsters. If anything, the situation should be reversed -- dragons should give crap xp and world monsters give the best. But that's basically for another thread....

EpiQC
06-02-2010, 04:40 AM
What restricted amount of valuable players? I have no idea what you are talking about?
You're basically saying "if anyone outside my level bracket is able to beat me, then it doesn't count". So you're restricting yourself to those players in your level bracket. So much for competitive PvP. "Oh hey it's not fair if you can beat me at Starcraft, you have 20 more APM than me! Come back when you have the same low APM as me."


Secondly - NO - a powerleveller is not a 'better' build. For the love of all that's holy, when are you guys going to come to terms with the fact that there is no such thing as a 'better' build when there are contradictory goals in the game? If I make a perfect MH build, it's not much use at PvP (except griefing). If I build a PvP build, it's not much use at MHing. Both of them CAN do the other, but, unsurprisingly, they are not specialised to do the other thing.
I power level to be a better PvPer later. Go figure. If my goal was to win easily against anyone in my level bracket, I would've stayed under level 80. But I want to be able to compete with everyone in the game. I could've never catched up with the old timers if I went for the same restricted old-school mentality build. So no, there isn't just 1 possible build for PvP. I'm specialized for PvP, and I went the energy route. With the current game parameters, it's the best build for long-term PvP. Of course you can tell us your stats and I'll come back after I catch up with you.

firagun
06-02-2010, 07:01 AM
The thing is, although a powerleveler guy with 1000+ level can easily beat a level 300 hardcore pvper, he still can not beat some other ppl with 2000+ level.

No one can always win. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, thats it.
There is no rule to play CA, CA is not Final Fantasy which has a final boss and once you beat it the game is over.

I don't have much energy/stamina but I try my best, with enjoyment, to utilize it to get what I want(all achievements, best gears in game, highest battle rank, legendary in arena, etc).

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 07:10 AM
You're basically saying "if anyone outside my level bracket is able to beat me, then it doesn't count". So you're restricting yourself to those players in your level bracket. So much for competitive PvP. "Oh hey it's not fair if you can beat me at Starcraft, you have 20 more APM than me! Come back when you have the same low APM as me."

No, I didn't say 'it doesn't count' - what is it with people in this thread putting words into my mouth?

I quite clearly said "i don't care'.

I don't care if someone 1000 levels higher than me can beat me - it's bloody obvious they can beat me. So what am I going to do about it? Powerlevel? Well, that gets me levels but not atk/def. So do I add atk/def? Then how am I going to catch someone 1000 levels higher than me? Either way, the player 1000 levels higher is outside my scope. The point about 'competitive', which you and others seem to miss, is that competition is between comparative equals, not between featherweight champions and superheavyweight champions. Do you think that would make a competitive boxing match?

Starcraft is a poor analogy as you showed in the sentence you wrote about it.



I power level to be a better PvPer later. Go figure. If my goal was to win easily against anyone in my level bracket, I would've stayed under level 80. But I want to be able to compete with everyone in the game. I could've never catched up with the old timers if I went for the same restricted old-school mentality build. So no, there isn't just 1 possible build for PvP. I'm specialized for PvP, and I went the energy route. With the current game parameters, it's the best build for long-term PvP. Of course you can tell us your stats and I'll come back after I catch up with you.

If you are PLing to be a better PvPer later, then you r doin it rong! :D

Again, misinterpretation of what I said. I didn't say I wanted to 'win easily', I said I wanted competitive PvP. If I wanted to 'win easily', I could powerlevel to 1000, get a 501 army and pick on people 800 levels lower with small armies - seems like that's the kind of PvP a number of people in this thread are interested in.

You will never catch up with the old timers, and if you think you will you are operating under faulty premises. You powerlevel to catch them, they are still levelling... while you are powerlevelling you are not increasing your attack and defense to any substantial degree or you are limiting your powerlevelling.

Anyone who thinks that pumping energy is a PvP build is operating under wildly erroneous assumptions, but that's been a mantra in this thread.

Finally, what do you mean 'catch up with' me? You are already higher level than me! :D Ohhh I know - what you mean is that when you are hundreds of levels higher than me, you can come and pick on me... please feel free to if that floats your boat, I am not even remotely interested in high level griefers - that's not the kind of PvP I am interested in, and I would have thought that was clearly spelt out to anyone and everyone who had read this thread.

'Competitive PvP' - clearly not the mot du jour in this thread.

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 07:16 AM
Now then having personal experience with a "Power Level" build -- I can say, that without a doubt it is not as much fun to PLAY. I am L212 now and the only way I can "power level" is by dumping ALL my STA on dragons and ALL my ENG on the one sub-quest. Even then, I sometimes fall a bit short and have to wait an hour or two to regenerate enough power to level again. Not much fun and seeings how I have all the dragon Achievements, it isn't gaining much more than the 5 skill points per level.

If, I shift to other critters (for diversity and to gain other Achievements/loot) and/or do quests other than the final sub-quest in the Land of Water in order to complete them and gather those skill points -- my regeneration time between levels sky-rockets to over 10 hours! Good enough for the last run of the day, but if I were not focussed on "power leveling", I would only level a bit more than twice per day at my current level -- and the wait gets longer with each level.

As my immediate goal is to try and test the 2000 ENG cap, I am forcing myself to level as quickly as I am able; but honestly, it is mind numbing doing it -- so, I'll likely limit myself to 3-5 levels per day (if that).

QFT again.

The problem here is that people with relatively low level and experience are predicting what will happen in the future but haven't actually experienced it to realise its flaws. Every strategy has pros and cons, and the PLer is going to have to focus their time on specific game dynamics and using FP in order to keep PLing. This limits their game scope for months and months on end - probably way past the interest period of the majority of players. Meanwhile, they are not able to engage in active PvP or it hampers their levelling wasting their resources, and their stats make them a target for anyone who comes a-knocking. When they ultimately reach their level goal, they then suppose they can turn round and magically become PvP viable for their level, when the truth is they will only ever be able to grief much lower level people - and they seem to extoll this as a virtue! :D

Dr Devious
06-02-2010, 08:17 AM
To what end? To level - my post started with the words "levelling is a red herring for PvP".

I know and understand perfectly well what a powerleveller can do - I have one of the highest characters on MySpace.

However, the entire thrust of my dissent from this thread is regarding PvP - not powerlevelling. The point is that the OP shafts the person hoping to be a competitive PvPer. One sunny day in several years time they might just possibly be able to come out on par with me in attack and defense. How proud that moment would be when they are on par with someone 1000 levels lower than them!

ok if you were to start again and your aim was to be as strong as possible in one years time irrespective of level would you do a pvp build? no you wouldn't because you know bsi doesn't make you stronger in real terms, that's what op is saying, i have been playing nearly 2 mouths i'm level 351 pvp builds who started when i did will be about level 60 if their going with bsi of 8, and that wouldn't beat me and my bsi of 1.8, now a hybrid build with high attack could be level 160 with bsi of 4 and beat us both,

Patrick D
06-02-2010, 11:31 AM
QFT again.

The problem here is that people with relatively low level and experience are predicting what will happen in the future but haven't actually experienced it to realise its flaws. Every strategy has pros and cons, and the PLer is going to have to focus their time on specific game dynamics and using FP in order to keep PLing. This limits their game scope for months and months on end - probably way past the interest period of the majority of players. Meanwhile, they are not able to engage in active PvP or it hampers their levelling wasting their resources, and their stats make them a target for anyone who comes a-knocking. When they ultimately reach their level goal, they then suppose they can turn round and magically become PvP viable for their level, when the truth is they will only ever be able to grief much lower level people - and they seem to extoll this as a virtue! :D

I am level 314 now and a Baron (after 3 months of playing), and unline Dave O I am really enjoying this build. I have so much stamina that I can PvP whenever I want while not being significantly hampered at FP farming. This is even more true for high energy builds as they primarily use their energy to farm FP and refills, while they can use their stamina for whatever means they see fit. And I disagree with both your arguments and those of EpiQC, the powerleveller is not a 'superior' build, it has its pros and cons and I know not everyone can enjoy such a build. It won't start to really shine at PvP until at least level 600 which takes 4 months or more of playing. However, from that point on they will be able to beat hardcore BSI builds who have started playing many months earlier, and if they continue playing and levelling they will even be able to compete against their fellow level 1000+ Gods (and not only against those who are of much lower level like you seem to think). That is my ultimate goal in this game, I want to be able to compete and measure myself against anyone regardless of level. I know I can't beat the Pegasuses out there and probably never will be, but that's okay, there should always be someone stronger than yourself to keep you motivated to become stronger.

So you telling us powerlevelling is a red herring is a load of bullcrap and you know it. We both have different aims and goals in this game and that's fine, but don't say that my way won't get me anywhere (in PvP) because that's just not true. You just want to measure yourself against those who are around your level, well that's fine to me but in that case I can't help but wonder why you just didn't leave your stamina/energy at base and only boost attack and defense? If that is all you care about why would you even care about levelling or pumping energy/stamina?

Patrick D
06-02-2010, 12:10 PM
One more thing, Ahmulag keeps repeating that our levelling will suffer once you start to add statpoints into defense and attack instead of energy or stamina. This is not really true, at the really high levels your levelling speed will become more and more dependant on FP refills and thus how many FP you can farm from monsters (not counting CC here). Once you have reached the stamina or energy cap for refills it will not help you level much faster anymore if you keep dumping points into those stats, so from that point on all points should go into attack and/or defense. And as long as you can keep a steady flow of FP going your way through fighting monster, you can keep levelling several times a day while your attack and defense stats keep on growing as well. Currently I am using 2 FP refills a day and still my total available FP keeps growing and growing without using a CC. I have almost reached the refill cap now so soon I will start pumping attack and/or defense while I keep using 2 refills/day. I really don't see what's going to stop me from levelling any time soon.

Dave O
06-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Once you have reached the stamina or energy cap for refills it will not help you level much faster anymore if you keep dumping points into those stats, so from that point on all points should go into attack and/or defense.

...

I have almost reached the refill cap now so soon I will start pumping attack and/or defense while I keep using 2 refills/day. I really don't see what's going to stop me from levelling any time soon.

Patrick, you reported earlier that your friend had refilled Energy for 2025. So, what is the "cap" on Energy?

Mursilis
06-02-2010, 12:38 PM
As for Mursilis's post, someone already made the perfect point earlier in the thread. My stat sheet is the same as yours, I can decide to attack another player anytime I want, same as you. I am attacked by more players and normally I defend those attacks. So I do not see how I do not meet or somehow hold up to these unwritten standards.

From what I have seen sofar in this thread, in order to be considered a PvPer I must conform to your methods of playing the game, have a narrow mind and outlook on the game, and fit into a tight box of a predetermined cookie cutter box style of playing, all in order to be accepted by my peers.

Do you PvP more, or PvM more? If you fight monsters a majority of the time, you're a monster hunter. If you fight other players a majority of the time, your a PvPer. Seems to be a fair generalization. Of course any build can participate in each aspect of CA, but if one fights monsters 98% of the time, they can't really be considered a hardcore PvPer, and vice versa.

I could say the same thing about being considered a monster hunter. I hear about the 2000/1000 rule over and over again and how without meeting those requirements, one isn't a true monster hunter or at least isn't doing it right. How is that not cookie cutterish? It would be interesting to know how much variation there truly is for the power leveler builds. I'm willing to bet they all follow the same template and as such don't have very much variety.

PvP on the other hand is all about personal choice. One does not need to fit into any box as far as stat distribution of your Attack/Defense points. One could be pure Attack, or pure Defense, or a 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 1:4 assignment ratio. All are viable depending on the individual's goals, and I'm sure all are fun to play. I see nothing but a wide variety of different build types in the PvP realm, so not sure where this narrow view thought is coming from.

Patrick D
06-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Patrick, you reported earlier that your friend had refilled Energy for 2025. So, what is the "cap" on Energy?

I don't know, it has to be more than 2025 that's all I know.

Patrick D
06-02-2010, 12:50 PM
I could say the same thing about being considered a monster hunter. I hear about the 2000/1000 rule over and over again and how without meeting those requirements, one isn't a true monster hunter or at least isn't doing it right. How is that not cookie cutterish? It would be interesting to know how much variation there truly is for the power leveler builds. I'm willing to bet they all follow the same template and as such don't have very much variety.

I don't follow the 2000/1000 template (or 2000+/1000 considering the energy cap for refills is higher than 2000), there are definitely more viable variations to powerlevel builds. Only one of the two really has to be high to be considered a PL build, because you can only refill one of them at a time.

Ahmulag Ra
06-02-2010, 01:45 PM
ok if you were to start again and your aim was to be as strong as possible in one years time irrespective of level would you do a pvp build? no you wouldn't because you know bsi doesn't make you stronger in real terms, that's what op is saying, i have been playing nearly 2 mouths i'm level 351 pvp builds who started when i did will be about level 60 if their going with bsi of 8, and that wouldn't beat me and my bsi of 1.8, now a hybrid build with high attack could be level 160 with bsi of 4 and beat us both,

Again - a level 351 can't fight a level 60, and even if they could, what does it prove? Nothing if 'competitive PvP' is the goal!

As I have just 'started again', so to speak, I have tried a completely different build with a powerleveller on MySpace. It gives me nowhere near as much pleasure as my FB PvP build.

It's all just horses for courses, and my only issue with the OP and with this thread in general is the claim that there is one goal and one method for achieving that - just plain wrong.